Glenn Greenwald's review on Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 11/9

This was one of the best piece's I have read in some time. Glenn has always been one of my favorite journalists, who despite his liberal bias, uses his attorney background and chip on his shoulder to tackle controversial topics at interesting angles.

I also enjoy the work Michael Moore does, though he has an abrasive personality, and not the most palatable presentation, he is a man of conviction and brings up interesting points about topics that should be discussed. *Edit* (to be clear he is very biased, and his work can often be very polarizing and sometimes distasteful, but its the discussions I'm promoting more than Moore or his work).

This documentary does not focus as much on Trump, but rather the environment that made his rise possible. It also points out his presence distracting from the problems that made so many sour to the institution we saw bastardized.

“FAHRENHEIT 11/9,” the title of Michael Moore’s new film that opens today in theaters, is an obvious play on the title of his wildly profitable Bush-era “Fahrenheit 9/11,” but also a reference to the date of Donald J. Trump’s 2016 election victory. Despite that, Trump himself is a secondary figure in Moore’s film, which is far more focused on the far more relevant and interesting questions of what – and, critically, who – created the climate in which someone like Trump could occupy the Oval Office.

For that reason alone, Moore’s film is highly worthwhile regardless of where one falls on the political spectrum. The single most significant defect in U.S. political discourse is the monomaniacal focus on Trump himself, as though he is the cause – rather than the by-product and symptom – of decades-old systemic American pathologies.

Personalizing and isolating Trump as the principal, even singular, source of political evil is obfuscating and thus deceitful. By effect, if not design, it distracts the population’s attention away from the actual architects of their plight.

This myth is not just false but self-evidently so. Yet it persists, and thrives, because it serves so many powerful interests at once. Most importantly, it exonerates, empowers, and elevates the pre-Trump ruling class, now recast as heroic leaders of the #Resistance and nostalgic symbols of America’s pre-11/9 Goodness.

The lie-fueled destruction of Vietnam and Iraq, the worldwide torture regime, the 2008 financial collapse and subsequent bailout and protection of those responsible for it, the foreign kidnapping and domestic rounding up of Muslims, the record-setting Obama-era deportations and whistleblower prosecutions, the obliteration of Yemen and Libya, the embrace of Mubarak, Sisi, and Saudi despots, the years of bipartisan subservience to Wall Street at everyone else’s expense, the full-scale immunity vested on all the elites responsible for all those crimes – it’s all blissfully washed away as we unite to commemorate the core decency of America as George Bush gently hands a piece of candy to Michelle Obama at the funeral of the American War Hero and Trump-opponent-in-words John S. McCain, or as hundreds of thousands of us re-tweet the latest bromide of Americana from the leaders of America’s most insidious security state, spy and police agencies.

The Intercept

These are just tidbits from the decent sized article that I strongly encourage everyone to read. It should be read like an op-ed and taken with a grain of salt IMO, as Glenn does not shy away from interjecting his own opinions into his work.

The two (Glenn and Michael) are doing something very important for the country right now, reviving the discussion of why we got to where we are at rather than distracting ourselves with the movement and forgetting the past. I'm going to wrap up the OP so it's not too long and discouraging in opening this line of questioning in peoples minds, but I'm going to add another comment with some other tidbits I think were very important.

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I'm not going to watch a Michael Moore film.
I tried years ago but it always left a bad taste.

This is going from memory here so bare with me.

In his anti gun movie he goes to a supposedly bad neighborhood and stands there saying crap like it doesnt feel unsafe to me..

He was there in broad daylight with several other people including a camera crew.
Why didn't he go back a night alone with a small hidden camera? Hmm

In his movie on capitalism he goes to the office of radio flyer and bitches they won't let him in for an interview... no appointment of course...

To me his movies are nothing more than a propaganda hit piece that doesnt tell the whole story.

He will not get a dime from me.

a reply to: Bluntone22

To me his movies are nothing more than a propaganda hit piece that doesnt tell the whole story.

He will not get a dime from me.

I don't blame you, they are definitely opinion pieces presenting one side more times than not to say politely.

This is why I used Glenn's take for the discussion, which I think was well written.

In the full article he does bring up (in his words, I have not seen the movie), the few and short cases where he took it too far.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Let’s not forget it bombed at the box office. It Only made 3 million on it’s weekend debut. Doesn’t sound like a lot of people are buying what he’s selling.

originally posted by: Fallingdown
a reply to: CriticalStinker

Let’s not forget it bombed at the box office. It Only made 3 million on it’s weekend debut. Doesn’t sound like a lot of people are buying what he’s selling.

I don't expect them to, nor do I root for this films success.

I haven't watched it. I'm merely presenting Glenn's breakdown of the conversation, which I think is important.

We focus too much on Trump, and many people blame all our woes on him when it is very deep rooted, we ignore important aspects about this country.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I agree opinion and discussion are needed. It’s just that for me my skin crawls when I hear Michael Moore‘s name.

Every time I think of him I picture him eating hotdogs two handed and screaming out hatred for anyone’s opinion he doesn’t agree with.

For me he never offers anything substantive enough to debate. His comments are bait which create division which fuel emotions and are purposely designed to make him money .

He’s no different than any of the doom/Conspiracy for profit characters on YouTube.

Mr. Moore had a rare moment of clarity....

a reply to: Fallingdown

I implore you to read the full article by Glenn. It's a great piece that piggy backs off of Moore, and it definitely calls him out where he was using obvious hyperbole.

It's a decent read though, so I understand if you don't want to dedicate time to it. But if you do, and you like it, check out Glenn's other work with The Intercept, most of it is incredible.

I'm sure you know, but for those who don't, Glenn and Jeremy Scahill are the two journalists that Edward Snowden trusted to tell his story, they then came together to form The Intercept, which used to be one of my favorite outlets but sadly has turned into a very biased site that pretty much only posts op-ed riddled with buzz words.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I plan on watching this when it moves out of the theaters and on to other media.
Michael Moore was one of the very few on the "left" to take trumps candidacy seriously and the concept of trump actually winning.
The "left" laughed at him then and will not support him now. They do not want to be reminded of their mistakes.
The water problem in flint was and continues to be inexcusable for all local, state, and federal officials involved. I would wager a lot of those in chicago feel the same way as they have also been largely ignored.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I also enjoy the work Michael Moore does

One can sum up Michael Moore with a song

"For the Love of Money" - O'Jays

For the love of money, people will lie, rob, they will cheat
For the love of money, people don't care who they hurt or beat

Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother, can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds

Nuff said

For the Love of Money

Good read and makes me glad I haven't and will not see Fahrenheit 11/9 unless it's free. Anyone using Nazism to draw cheap comparisons in today's politics has sunk too low and deserves to drown in their own misguided delusions.

America is facing a crisis in confidence; what is America ? how do we fix this broken system ? Do we modify it or replace it entirely ? Is it possible to go back to the original vision and start over ?

The MSM would have us believe we either become the next Nazi Germany or destroy our traditional institutions and begin the next phase based on the European socialist model. The choices are infinite in reality though that makes the decision all the more difficult. People want easy choices with easy consequences. Socialism sounds great where everyone's basic needs are met by the state but the cost is far beyond our capacity to bear for even a generation or 2.

We allowed money to become the deciding factor in our government, corporations rather than people call the shots. We need them for economic growth and security yet their very structure is what is creating a great deal of misery and discontent. We have a lot of hard decisions to make and work to do, none of which can happen if both sides do nothing but shout obscenities at each other.

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: CriticalStinker

I also enjoy the work Michael Moore does

Nuff said

I watch pundits from all sides. Some of his work had some very good insight and was ahead of it's time. Some of it can be repulsive. Luckily I'm an adult and can listen to people without agreeing with them.

I read your posts don't I.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I doubt you’re going to get many right wing people here to read or watch anything that doesn’t reinforce their political beliefs.

A+ for trying though.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

Good read and makes me glad I haven't and will not see Fahrenheit 11/9 unless it's free. Anyone using Nazism to draw cheap comparisons in today's politics has sunk too low and deserves to drown in their own misguided delusions.

I think the Nazi argument is lazy and insensitive to the impact that had on the world, and untold millions of people.

America is facing a crisis in confidence; what is America ? how do we fix this broken system ? Do we modify it or replace it entirely ? Is it possible to go back to the original vision and start over ?

We as citizens have to start actually talking, not arguing. Debate is fine so long as it is done responsibly. But the tribalists would rather discredit their community neighbors than work with them (politically, ironically we all work together professionally with little to no issues).

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most of us recognize and agree on a majority of the problems facing us, we just believe in different solutions. Once we can stop being fickle and focus on jointly achieving goals rather than "our team winning", we as the people who are supposed to run this democracy can one day take control again... I say that with very little faith.

dbl

dbl

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: CriticalStinker

I also enjoy the work Michael Moore does

Nuff said

I watch pundits from all sides. Some of his work had some very good insight and was ahead of it's time. Some of it can be repulsive. Luckily I'm an adult and can listen to people without agreeing with them.

I read your posts don't I.

GO back and read my edited post.
I added the reasoning behind what I stated.

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: CriticalStinker

I plan on watching this when it moves out of the theaters and on to other media.
Michael Moore was one of the very few on the "left" to take trumps candidacy seriously and the concept of trump actually winning.
The "left" laughed at him then and will not support him now. They do not want to be reminded of their mistakes.
The water problem in flint was and continues to be inexcusable for all local, state, and federal officials involved. I would wager a lot of those in chicago feel the same way as they have also been largely ignored.

It was surreal to watch that as it happened. Love him or hate him, I do believe he is one of the "true liberals", between his anti-war pieces and his recognition of the Democratic party failing before they did in 2016, the neo-libs have unofficially blacklisted him for not playing ball.

I don't agree with his politics, but to understand all points of view I listen to him for a total of a few hours a year haha.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: CriticalStinker

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: CriticalStinker

I also enjoy the work Michael Moore does

Nuff said

I watch pundits from all sides. Some of his work had some very good insight and was ahead of it's time. Some of it can be repulsive. Luckily I'm an adult and can listen to people without agreeing with them.

I read your posts don't I.

GO back and read my edited post.
I added the reasoning behind what I stated.

Yes he makes money, and it seems ironic doesn't it? It is the antithesis of the ideology he sells(literally).

But poor people can't make films to sell their ideology, he plays the game.

Such is the beauty of a free country where we used to embrace individualism, but a few still use it to their advantage.

Just on the flip side Warren Buffet would be the polar opposite to Moore, benefiting from capitalism in degrees we idolize and site as examples. And his plans are to donate 95% of his wealth, he still lives in a ~600,000 dollar house in Omaha Nebraska.

It is always up to individuals to define themselves no matter how hard me and you try to do it for them.