No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Of course I'm concerned about violence, but this thread isn't about that.

Really? Then exactly what kind of "safety" is the title referring to??? Overflowing toilets? Spontaneous shattering of mirrors?

So bringing it up to strawman me about my lack of protest against it is disingenuous.

No. Disingenious is pretending like violence isn't a factor in an OP about discounting and minimizing that violence AND the increased risk for women and girls AND the increased opportunity for violent predators to victimize women and girls.

Which obviously includes those hateful TERFs that deserve to be punched, eh? Gotcha. Loud and clear.

Oh look it's your favorite topic. hahaha.

originally posted by: Boadicea
Really? Then exactly what kind of "safety" is the title referring to??? Overflowing toilets? Spontaneous shattering of mirrors?

It's referring to the conservative originated fear that trans people laws in the bathrooms produce allow perverts to go into bathrooms and attack children. The TERF/trans war is a COMPLETELY different topic involving COMPLETELY different issues and problems. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if a TERF voices support for this conservative idea, but I didn't write this thread while thinking about them. I wrote thinking about the originators of this paranoia theory.

No. Disingenious is pretending like violence isn't a factor in an OP about discounting and minimizing that violence AND the increased risk for women and girls AND the increased opportunity for violent predators to victimize women and girls.

I didn't do that either. I posted a study that suggests that these bathroom laws don't lead to more perverts creeping on children in bathrooms. I posted it to counter the fear that you are trying to pin on me for not caring about.

Which obviously includes those hateful TERFs that deserve to be punched, eh? Gotcha. Loud and clear.

See. This is you inventing my argument. I have NEVER in my life said to punch a TERF or that they should be punched, let alone in this thread. My problems with them are the same with conservatives. they start end with me trying to use words to convince them of their errors.

originally posted by: Lysergic
Oh look it's your favorite topic. hahaha.

Well I'd say that drugs or cannabis topics are my favorite topic, but even if this is my favorite topic, is that a problem? Why is that funny to you that I like talking about trans problems?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Weasel words. Violence is the issue and it is a problem Both in the trans community and regarding trans bathroom laws. I have clearly differentiated those trans persons that advocate violence from the greater trans community, and I have clearly included non-trans persons as a threat in private spaces for women.

I'm not the one throwing out strawman arguments and playing semantics to minimize and dismiss the very real threats of abuse in the big picture.

a reply to: Boadicea

Trying to keep the thread on topic is "weasel words"? How many cases of TERFs and trans people slugging it out in bathrooms have you heard about exactly?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I have sent you a U2U about this post.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Conflating my words just proves my point.

Again, I very clearly differentiated between the violence specific to transgender bathroom laws and the violence specific to the greater trans and LGBT community....

a reply to: Boadicea

And I very CLEARLY wrote a topic about bathroom violence and NOT about the greater trans and LGBT community violence.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Okay. I'm happy to let our words stand on their own merits.

My neighbor is trans and I never even new it after living beside them for 7 years. If they went into a public washroom stall and as long as they sat down, you would NEVER know what their birth sex was. You can 'ban' all you want, but it 'aint going to stop it'.

originally posted by: mamabeth
a reply to: xxGPxx

Excuse me,my mental problems? I don't have any mental problems!
If I did,I would never broadcast it online for the world to see.I don't
have a problem with my sexual identity.I was born a female and will
die being a woman.I only use the ladies room and would never enter
the men's room.

Lol I was talking about the mental problems of trans people. I was agreeing with your previous statement.

a reply to: xxGPxx

Okay,sorry about any confusion on my part.

Howdy folks, mostly a lurker here. Just want to add a few thoughts:

This is a bigger issue than just bathrooms. Its also about locker rooms, women shelters, women's sports, prisons and basically all women spaces and there is a conflict of interest between trans activists and feminists but both sides deserve to be heard . And imo the concerns expressed by lot feminists are totally valid. Basically if a man can become a woman simply by self declaration, with no questions asked, then how are women supposed to set boundaries against men? Because then any man can just simply identify as a woman and get instant access to any space previously reserved for women only. They don't need to have gone through surgery, or even look or even be dressed like a woman since all that is needed now is for you to simply identify as a woman to be considered a woman. So many women feel that all the protections and safe spaces that women have fought very hard to get and which are based on the biological sex differences between men and women, and because of the oppression that they have been subjected to because of their biology are now at risk of being lost.

Because if there are men pretending to be transgender just to get access to women spaces, how are we going know if one is legit or fake? And it is very naive to think some men won't take advantage of this since men have a history of transgressing women's rights and being total creeps in all kinds of ways since forever. Let's face it, men excel at being creeps. I live in NYC and here you can go to any of the main parks like Union Square and always find the "peepers" who are these creepy guys who will stand by the stairs in the park where women sit trying to look under their skirt and they will be standing for hours pretending to talk on the phone just to get a glance under their skirts. They have been filmed and confronted multiple times and they still do it. Or how about the guys who masturbate in the subways in front of women, many repeat offenders who have been to jail and come out just to do it again. Or just go to any nudist beach anywhere and you will see a ratio of 70% men of which at least half fall under the total creep category and as soon as any woman comes into the beach they start gawking, following, approaching and just sexually harassing the women. These are just some examples that come to my mind just so we remember the reality and stop pretending that some men will not take advantage of suddenly having access to women spaces.

So obviously some women are going to be concerned about this, don't you think? So I think these concerns should be addressed without throwing hateful silencing slurs like "terf" or calling them transphobes or bigots. Of course transgender people deserve to be safe and protected but not at the expense of making women feel unsafe and not protected. So both sides need to be heard.

Btw check this article on the issue which I think touches a lot of very valid concerns.

The left are abandoning women and in doing so abandoning everything they stand for

Also this one which is actually done by a trans woman who actually agrees with a lot feminists:

www.economist.com...

Respect!

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you think that someone taking hormone replacement to have female features would be proud of showing off their penis?

Do you think that there has ever been a stipulation that men that transition have to be on hormones? I thought that was transgender wrong think. You don't have to be on hormones, or lop off your peen to be transgender. One of the problems with this whole thing is that there is no standard.

I do think that there are "real" transgenders, and that there has been an explosion of "transtrenders". I don't think the latter care at all, and that they just want attention.

I don't think the vast majority of transgenders are likely to be sex offenders, but I do understand and advocate for women that don't want to see a penis in their locker room (or someone obviously packing one). Even if the peen is not seen, there are a TON of trans people that don't come close to passing. It's obvious. I completely understand why women would be uncomfortable. Especially those that have experienced sexual trauma, and those with children present. I don't get the whole elevate trans people over women and their feelings bent a lot of trans supporters are taking. Screw women, only trans women matter now. It's complete nonsense.

If the trans person isn't doing anything wrong, their comfort levels are literally irrelevant penis or no penis.

If the normal people aren't doing anything wrong, then the trans people's comfort levels are literally irrelevant. Why should the VAST majority of society cater to the whims of such a small percentage?

-----

Listen, I don't hate trans people. I don't have any ill will towards them, and I'm going to use the correct pronouns and whatnot because it's not hard if I'm introduced. I take issue with this blind acceptance and delusion that a transgender person is the same as the gender they identify as. It is NOT the same.

People that are uncomfortable with a man or woman in their locker room that "changed gender" should get the same amount of respect you want for transgenders. There are a LOT more of us. So do you just think "Screw your feelings cisgender people, you're wrong for having perfectly valid feelings!"?

-----

One of the things that irritates me the most is being called hateful when I'm anything but. I don't want to make life harder for trans people, I want to make it more realistic, and combat the OBVIOUS dumbass attention seeking trend we've seen bloom in the last few years.

-----

I love the DSM right now. Gender dysphoria is a problem, only treatment is transition. Transitioning is said to be the answer. People who transition no longer experience dysphoria. It doesn't impact their lives. BULL. Taking drugs, wearing a wig, worrying about your voice, freaking out about pronouns because maybe 10% actually pass once they start talking, hiding the penis, learning how to use makeup daily to hide that obviousness, removing body hair, getting invasive surgery (if you're into it), always knowing that any straight man you want to date will reject you if you tell him you're transgender. Doesn't seem like not affecting day to day life. And that's the bar.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you think that someone taking hormone replacement to have female features would be proud of showing off their penis?

Do you think that there has ever been a stipulation that men that transition have to be on hormones? I thought that was transgender wrong think. You don't have to be on hormones, or lop off your peen to be transgender. One of the problems with this whole thing is that there is no standard.

The ones not on hormones probably also aren't walking into women's bathrooms either.

I do think that there are "real" transgenders, and that there has been an explosion of "transtrenders". I don't think the latter care at all, and that they just want attention.

Drastically altering your body and possibly even going so far as to make it so you can't have children just to look like the gender you think you are is just wanting attention? That's like saying homosexuality is a choice despite the massive social stigmas that used to exist against it. Like why would you make that choice? Cis-gendered people don't tend to agonize about the gender they were born as.

Don't you think it is possible that mainstream attention to their cause has allowed more closeted transgenders to get the confidence to come out? You know like what happened with the homosexual community when that went mainstream? Before it went mainstream, it was kosher to rip on them so the ones who were ashamed of it hid it deep down. It's really not that hard to understand.

I don't think the vast majority of transgenders are likely to be sex offenders, but I do understand and advocate for women that don't want to see a penis in their locker room (or someone obviously packing one). Even if the peen is not seen, there are a TON of trans people that don't come close to passing. It's obvious. I completely understand why women would be uncomfortable. Especially those that have experienced sexual trauma, and those with children present. I don't get the whole elevate trans people over women and their feelings bent a lot of trans supporters are taking. Screw women, only trans women matter now. It's complete nonsense.

Passing or not passing doesn't qualify the person as a woman or not. Your standards of womanhood as far as looks go have no relevance to another person's privacy. A trans person could be on hormones for years and even get SRS and still not pass. That person isn't going to be a predator just because she doesn't pass completely and to suggest she would be is pretty closed minded of you.

If the normal people aren't doing anything wrong, then the trans people's comfort levels are literally irrelevant. Why should the VAST majority of society cater to the whims of such a small percentage?

How is minding your own business catering to anyone's whims?

Listen, I don't hate trans people. I don't have any ill will towards them, and I'm going to use the correct pronouns and whatnot because it's not hard if I'm introduced. I take issue with this blind acceptance and delusion that a transgender person is the same as the gender they identify as. It is NOT the same.

People that are uncomfortable with a man or woman in their locker room that "changed gender" should get the same amount of respect you want for transgenders. There are a LOT more of us. So do you just think "Screw your feelings cisgender people, you're wrong for having perfectly valid feelings!"?

Your entire argument is literally, "This person doesn't look woman enough for me to trust her." It's a fallacious argument that I'm trying to disprove with the study in the OP.

One of the things that irritates me the most is being called hateful when I'm anything but. I don't want to make life harder for trans people, I want to make it more realistic, and combat the OBVIOUS dumbass attention seeking trend we've seen bloom in the last few years.

I am not calling you hateful. I wish you wouldn't put that on me.

I love the DSM right now. Gender dysphoria is a problem, only treatment is transition. Transitioning is said to be the answer. People who transition no longer experience dysphoria. It doesn't impact their lives. BULL. Taking drugs, wearing a wig, worrying about your voice, freaking out about pronouns because maybe 10% actually pass once they start talking, hiding the penis, learning how to use makeup daily to hide that obviousness, removing body hair, getting invasive surgery (if you're into it), always knowing that any straight man you want to date will reject you if you tell him you're transgender. Doesn't seem like not affecting day to day life. And that's the bar.

Whoa! Have you talked to any transgender people? Dysphoria does NOT go away with transition. In fact, the process of transition can make it worse as it comes in waves. Any little part of the girl's body that looks manly in her opinion can trigger it. With hormone replacement drugs, this triggers emotional responses. I imagine even passing girls still get it from time-to-time. Just like any mental irregularity, it is NEVER fixed. You live with it the rest of your life. In this particular case, transitioning is seen as a healthy way to deal with it. Transitioning isn't for every transgender either. Some stay as the same gender and maybe only dress up as a woman in their own home (I wouldn't expect these people to be going into women's bathrooms either).

And you are right, transitioning is tough. I am wary about your 10% number you made up, but other than that I'm in agreement with you. It's not something to be undertaken lightly and MOST transgenders only start it after talking to a therapist about it. And it is true that they probably won't pass for most of the straight male population (that doesn't mean 100% of the straight male population), but transitioning isn't about appealing to them. It's about making the person herself happy. That really should give you an idea about how strong these desires are. Even despite society's expectations, the person STILL wants to go through with the transition.

a reply to: Aluxe

Individual, lockable rooms for all - with adequate supervision/monitoring. It’s the safest option. Won’t be cheap though, but money should be no object when it comes to women’s safety.

What I want to know is what are we going to do about elevators, parking garages, jogging trails, and other public places that can be isolated, and a danger to women? Should we ban those spaces/areas so we greatly reduce the opportunities for predators? Do we massively increase security in these areas (which could be quite costly, especially for jogging trails)? Maybe cameras, cameras everywhere? A little “1984” would certainly be helpful in identifying the predators.

As a woman, I am concerned about these other spaces, and I think these concerns should be addressed without putting me down in any way. If these concerns aren’t taken seriously, then I could see that as abandoning women.

a reply to: Krazysh0t


Yeah...Safe. Men don't belong in the Women's bathroom. I don't care what part they cut off, and stuff where. Their DNA says, that they are of the originating gender. You cannot change DNA. The rest is all playing pretend.

Transgender Wyoming woman convicted of sexually assaulting 10-year-old girl in bathroom.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Of course, I expect such an ignorant response from you. I know you’d like to go back to the 50’s, when blacks and women knew their place, gays stayed in the closet, and no one even knew trans people existed. Good luck with that.

Uhm, I never mentioned blacks, women, or gays here... you're connecting dots where none exist. Is your position really so tenuous and ineffectual that you need to turn a disagreement based on science versus feels into a hyperbolic quagmire reflecting multiple issues not even topical to this discussion?

you did respond to me just the other day telling me you would be just fine going back to how things were in the 50's did you not?

thats how things were in the 50's

originally posted by: mamabeth
.But, if I am in that
ladies room and a man walks in and there are children present,I am not leaving
until that man does!

thank christ
i feel so much better knowing you are there watching out for the children