Abiogenesis - The Impossible Theoretical Miracle

a reply to: cooperton

So admit you do not understand epigenetics, genetics, or science. Because every single post you make demonstrates this. I am told being truthful is the Christian thing to do

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: JameSimon
a reply to: cooperton

Only evolution could allow a gene to switch off an on.

The good ol' evolution gods haha. But no it is not evolution. Turning genes on and off is epigenetic. Epigenetic alterations occur within the lifetime of an organism.

Please address everything else I said (and that you so carefully choose to ignore).

I am going one at a time, you still seem to stubbornly think evolution is responsible for epigenetic mechanisms.

originally posted by: JameSimon

I didn't say such thing, so please refrain from making personal statements when the only argument you have is to distort the message.

Your blanket statement was "wrong", and my claim was the involvement of epigenetics. I stand by what I said.

So you choose to ignore. Thought so. Good to know that you're not here to debate but to troll.

Epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence.

Gene does X. Gene starts doing X + Y. Either gene mutated or another gene caused that gene to act like that. Evolution. It's such a simple concept my 10 year old brother understands it.

Also, fun fact, the human brain is getting smaller. You should apply for that study.

originally posted by: JameSimon

Epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence.

haha you literally copy and pasted the first sentence of the wikipedia page for epigenetics. Riveting.


"Epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence"
Wiki page for epigenetics

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: JameSimon

Epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence.

haha you literally copy and pasted the first sentence of the wikipedia page for epigenetics. Riveting.


"Epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence"
Wiki page for epigenetics

And that makes it less true because....?

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

And that makes it less true because....?

I was never saying it was untrue. JameSimon was acting like he knew something about epigenetics but then just copy and pasted the first line of wikipedia.

Ironically, the wikipedia quote is exactly what my argument is: Heritable alterations are primarily due to epigenetics - such as antibiotic resistance.

a reply to: cooperton

Ahh so you can prove this? Lets talk SNP alterations of hemoglobin. Assuming you understand what the SNP does. I will hint, its a structural change (for the most part) to the function of the proteins which make Hemoglobin.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: cooperton

Ahh so you can prove this? Lets talk SNP alterations of hemoglobin. Assuming you understand what the SNP does. I will hint, its a structural change (for the most part) to the function of the proteins which make Hemoglobin.

Yeah allele drift (i.e. varying frequencies of particular SNPs) is another form of heritability. I never said heritability was totally epigenetic, I said primarily.

Hemoglobin in regards to malaria-prevention has been shown to have epigenetic necessities:

"we propose that host epigenetics is an essential, though relatively under studied, factor in the protection or susceptibility to malaria." Source

a reply to: cooperton

I said prove it is the primary form. Also the SNPs for hemoglobin are not all about malaria resistance (its not prevention). It includes greater oxygen uptake for example.

So once again. Prove your statement.burdon of proof and all that Jazz

a reply to: watchitburn

Basic Chemicals can be Combined to Create Biological Life . This is Old News.....

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: cooperton

I said prove it is the primary form. Also the SNPs for hemoglobin are not all about malaria resistance (its not prevention). It includes greater oxygen uptake for example.

So once again. Prove your statement.burdon of proof and all that Jazz

Epigenetics is ubiquitous and responsible for controlling all genes. All genes have epigenetic regulation.



If these mechanisms are responsible for pretty much everything involving gene expression, then why, or how, would hemoglobin or antibiotic resistance be an exception? especially since all proteins are coded by genes which are subject to this regulation.

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: watchitburn

Basic Chemicals can be Combined to Create Biological Life . This is Old News.....

Source? I'm Interested. I do not think the reaction of basic chemicals could culminate the many necessities required for even the most basic organism.

a reply to: cooperton

That is not proof. That is supposition. QED show proof it is the primary mode of heritibility, as per your statement. Further more, based on your statement, show that it is not involved in the evolutionary process.

Burden of proof remains yours.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: cooperton

That is not proof. That is supposition. QED show proof it is the primary mode of heritibility, as per your statement. Further more, based on your statement, show that it is not involved in the evolutionary process.

Burden of proof remains yours.

1) Epigenetic mechanisms are the primary modulator of all genes.
2) Lactase is a gene
3) Therefore, epigenetic mechanisms are the primary modulator of the lactase gene.

There are already studies demonstrating this:

"However, an epigenome-wide approach using the Illumina Infinium HM450 bead chip identified a differentially methylated position in the LCT promoter where methylation levels are associated with the genotype at −13910C > T, the persistence/non-persistence phenotype and lactase enzymatic activity"
Study 2018

"epigenetically controlled regulatory elements... accounted for inter-individual differences of lactase mRNA level in a Lithuanian cohort of individuals"
Study 2017

" Epigenetically-controlled regulatory elements were found to account for the differences in lactase mRNA levels between individuals, intestinal cell types and species."
study 2016

a reply to: cooperton

You're not including mutations which are inevitably there. This is a sequence of events, not an exclusive interaction between epigenetic pressure and the gene.

Mutations in Epigenetic Regulation Genes Are a Major Cause of Overgrowth with Intellectual Disability. Tatton-Brown K1, Loveday C2, Yost S2, Clarke M2, Ramsay E2, Zachariou A2, Elliott A2, Wylie H2, Ardissone A3, Rittinger O4, Stewart F5, Temple IK6, Cole T7; Childhood Overgrowth Collaboration, Mahamdallie S2, Seal S2, Ruark E2, Rahman N8. Author information

Abstract To explore the genetic architecture of human overgrowth syndromes and human growth control, we performed experimental and bioinformatic analyses of 710 individuals with overgrowth (height and/or head circumference ≥+2 SD) and intellectual disability (OGID). We identified a causal mutation in 1 of 14 genes in 50% (353/710). This includes HIST1H1E, encoding histone H1.4, which has not been associated with a developmental disorder previously. The pathogenic HIST1H1E mutations are predicted to result in a product that is less effective in neutralizing negatively charged linker DNA because it has a reduced net charge, and in DNA binding and protein-protein interactions because key residues are truncated. Functional network analyses demonstrated that epigenetic regulation is a prominent biological process dysregulated in individuals with OGID.Mutations in six epigenetic regulation genes-NSD1, EZH2, DNMT3A, CHD8, HIST1H1E, and EED-accounted for 44% of individuals (311/710). There was significant overlap between the 14 genes involved in OGID and 611 genes in regions identified in GWASs to be associated with height (p = 6.84 × 10-8), suggesting that a common variation impacting function of genes involved in OGID influences height at a population level. Increased cellular growth is a hallmark of cancer and there was striking overlap between the genes involved in OGID and 260 somatically mutated cancer driver genes (p = 1.75 × 10-14). However, the mutation spectra of genes involved in OGID and cancer differ, suggesting complex genotype-phenotype relationships. These data reveal insights into the genetic control of human growth and demonstrate that exome sequencing in OGID has a high diagnostic yield.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Mutations are part of the process. There's no getting around this fact.

a reply to: cooperton

You have read all those studies have you? Or perhaps done a key word search

You are missing the point, that mutations are still happening with the epigenetic modifications. Further more evolutionary theory now is taking epigenetics into account.

a reply to: cooperton

Include the mutations and you're home free. You cannot exclude mutations because mutation is essential for the organism to evolve. If epigenetics were the only pressure resulting in gene modification, there would be no evidence of mutation. However, every paper on the relationship between epigenetics and genomic modification includes the mutation event as well.

a reply to: cooperton

Here's a more detailed paper focusing on cancer:

How Genetics Affect Epigenetics While epigenetics and genetics can cooperate in cancer initiation and progression, the interconnectedness between of these two processes is becoming increasingly apparent with the realization that several epigenetic modifiers are mutated in human cancers(Kasinski and Slack, 2011b; Rodriguez-Paredes and Esteller, 2011; Schuettengruber et al., 2011; Wilson and Roberts, 2011).

Some examples of genetic mutations of epigenetic modifiers are shown in Table 1 and Figure 2. The mutation of epigenetic modifiers presumably leads to profound epigenetic changes, including aberrant DNA methylation, histone modifications and nucleosome positioning although this remains to be demonstrated. These epigenetic alterations can lead to abnormal gene expression and genomic instability, which may predispose to cancer(Rodriguez-Paredes and Esteller, 2011; Wilson and Roberts, 2011).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: cooperton

You have read all those studies have you? Or perhaps done a key word search

You are missing the point, that mutations are still happening with the epigenetic modifications.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton

Mutations are part of the process. There's no getting around this fact.

I'm not arguing that. Mutations can occur and they can have an alteration of physiology. Allele variations or SNPs do not prove though that these alterations could create novel genes as supposed by evolutionary theory. They can only slightly modify existing genes. There are no repeatable, observable examples of a gene making a leap to another gene function. Lactase genes produce lactase, HBB genes produce beta-globin, etc. To assume that these SNPs could make a functional leap from an old gene to a new one is unfounded in scientific literature. The burden of proof for this claim is on evolutionary theorists.

a reply to: cooperton

There are no repeatable, observable examples of a gene making a leap to another gene function. Lactase genes produce lactase, HBB genes produce beta-globin, etc. To assume that these SNPs could make a functional leap from an old gene to a new one is unfounded in scientific literature

I'm not clear on what you mean. If a gene undergoes mutation, it is changed. Are you saying that the functional DNA in that gene doesn't jump to another gene and change it permanently? I must have missed it, but I didn't see any paper posted which suggested that. And I don't know the answer to that question. I have to research it. I've heard of "jumping genes" but not sure it applies to lactase.

a reply to: cooperton

There are no repeatable, observable examples of a gene making a leap to another gene function. Lactase genes produce lactase, HBB genes produce beta-globin, etc. To assume that these SNPs could make a functional leap from an old gene to a new one is unfounded in scientific literature

I'm not clear on what you mean. If a gene undergoes mutation, it is changed. Are you saying that the functional DNA in that gene doesn't jump to another gene and change it permanently? I must have missed it, but I didn't see any paper posted which suggested that. And I don't know the answer to that question. I have to research it. I've heard of "jumping genes" but not sure it applies to lactase.

originally posted by: Phantom423

I'm not clear on what you mean. If a gene undergoes mutation, it is changed. Are you saying that the functional DNA in that gene doesn't jump to another gene and change it permanently? I must have missed it, but I didn't see any paper posted which suggested that. And I don't know the answer to that question. I have to research it. I've heard of "jumping genes" but not sure it applies to lactase.

Evolutionary theory insists that mutations can give rise to new genes with new functions. For example, the Lactase Gene has about 55,000 base pairs. For this gene to have been created through random mutation, it would have had to undergo thousands of mutations from another template gene. This is a monumentous leap and there is no observable evidence in the scientific literature that demonstrates this is possible. The burden of proof is on evolutionary theorists to prove this can happen.