How Did the Universe Begin? The Math

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by saint4GodStick me in the garden with Gregory Mendel then

Damned monks and their gardens. Ah well, at least monks tend to make some good stout beer, there's allways that when the peas get boring!

LOL! Thanks Nygdan, I needed that

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Order isnt conscious intelligence, though. I find the universe as wonderous others find their non-existant Gods wonderous.

What?


How could ANYTHING be created without Intelligence?(Interesting to note that this very word, is the main Attribute of Binah - Sex - The Holy Spirit)

That wouldn't make any sense at all.


I'm not saying that the Gods you speak of exist, at least not in the way that the profane think they do.

I'm not saying they don't either.


A big problem with humanity nowadays, is this Science VS. Religion schism, that in reality does not exist.

Religion and Science are one and the same, as I've shown here:

Originally posted by Tamahu




The Ray of Creation

Before the dawn of the Mahamanvantara (Sanskrit for "the great cosmic day"), Nothing (No-Thing/Eternal Siety) existed. All that was, was the Omeyocan (Nahuatl), the Absolute Abstract Space. It is here that the womb of the ocean of Divine Mother Space resides, waiting to be fecundated by the Eternal Cosmic Common Father in order to initiate the dawn of creation.

The womb of the Divine Mother Space is the Absolute, it is that which is the Siety, the original point of departure of everything existent.

The Absolute – Three Aspects

1. Ain (Hebrew: Nothing)- the unmanifested Absolute, the womb of the ocean of Divine Mother Space. This is where only the wind and the darkness exists.

2. Ain Soph (Hb: Limitless)- This is our atomic star that sends it’s Ray into the world in order to be cognizant of its own happiness. This is the Star of Bethlehem, that which guides the path of the Bodhisattva. This is the original point of departure, where everything comes from in the beginning of the Mahamanvantara and where everything returns during the Mahapralaya (Sanskrit for Cosmic Night).

3. Ain Soph Aur (Hb: Limitless Light)–The Ray of Creation. This is the Cosmic Christ, Quetzlcoatl (Nahuatl), Okidanok (Gurdjieff), Vishnu (Sans), Kukulcan (Mayan), etc. This is the source of all life and light in the universe. It is the ray that sacrifices itself in order to give birth to the multiple realms and forms upon the eternal Tree of Life. It Sacrifices itself in order to undergo multiple transformations, becoming more and more dense, more complicated so as to give life opportunity upon various planes of existence.

The Ray of Creation begins in the Absolute and ends in the Inferno, Avitchi, Greek Tarturus, or submerged Mineral Kingdom. On the following diagram, which depicts the Tree of Life, the Kabbalah, we see the Ray of Creation as the white line which zigzags down the Tree towards the abyss.....

The Ray of Creation

Now we see where The RZA(for all you Wu-Tang fans

) gets his Attribute: Ruler - Zig-Zag-Zig - Allah.

We half to Zig-Zag-Zig back up The Tree of Life, as to escape suffering and help others to do so; through Supreme Mathematics(Kabbalah).....

Peace

Originally posted by Tamahu
A big problem with humanity nowadays, is this Science VS. Religion schism, that in reality does not exist.

Religion and Science are one and the same, as I've shown here:

I don't know what that diagram is supposed to mean, but Tamahu if you think Religion and Science are the same please buy some metaphysical land I have down in the Floridatopia Evergladiums (created by my own intelligence, seen in a real vision, written down just now)?

Physical dollars only please. Will transfer metaphysical deed telepathically upon receipt.

Also offering good deals on Freedom, Liberty, Justice and other cave shadows.

In fact, I offer a generous 2 for 1 exchange rate on all physical dollars for my metaphysical ones.

Religion and science the same. :shk:

See my previous post on apples and oranges please.

[edit on 4-3-2005 by RANT]

Sometimes RANT you really make me laugh, Metaphysical money? You think the IRS might buy that, I mean if they didn't I could always claim discrimination couldn't I?

What?


How could ANYTHING be created without Intelligence?(Interesting to note that this very word, is the main Attribute of Binah - Sex - The Holy Spirit)

That wouldn't make any sense at all.

Sure it makes sense. How are rainbows made? By natural processes. Is their any intelligence behind it? No.

A big problem with humanity nowadays, is this Science VS. Religion schism, that in reality does not exist.

It may not exist to you, but it is very real to every other American who wants creationism taught in public science classes.

Religion and Science are one and the same, as I've shown here:

Sorry, I dont understand gibberish.



[edit on 4-3-2005 by Alec Eiffel]

Perhaps one should listen to what The Three Initiates have to say regarding these matters.....

From lip to ear the truth has been handed down among the few. There have always been a few Initiates in each generation, in the various lands of the earth, who kept alive the sacred flame of the Hermetic Teachings, and such have always been willing to use their lamps to re-light the lesser lamps of the outside world, when the light of truth grew dim, and clouded by reason of neglect, and when the wicks became clogged with foreign matter. There were always a few to tend faithfully the altar of the Truth, upon which was kept alight the Perpetual Lamp of Wisdom. These men devoted their lives to the labor of love which the poet has so well stated in his lines:

" 'O, let not the flame die out! Cherished age after age in its dark cavern--in its holy temples cherished. Fed by pure ministers of love--let not the flame die out! "

These men have never sought popular approval, nor numbers of followers. They are indifferent to these things, for they know how few there are in each generation who are ready for the truth, or who would recognize it if it were presented to them. They reserve the "strong meat for men," while others furnish the "milk for babes." They reserve their pearls of wisdom for the few elect, who recognize their value and who wear them in their crowns, instead of casting them before the materialistic vulgar swine, who would trample them in the mud and mix them with their disgusting mental food. But still these men have never forgotten or overlooked the original teachings of Hermes, regarding the passing on of the words of truth to those ready to receive it, which teaching is stated in The Kybalion as follows: "Where fall the footsteps of the Master, the ears of those ready for his Teaching open wide." And again: "When the ears of the student are ready to hear, then cometh the lips to fill them with wisdom." But their customary attitude has always been strictly in accordance with the other Hermetic aphorism, also in The Kybalion: "The lips of Wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding."

-The Kybalion







PEACE

Originally posted by Alec EiffelSorry, I dont understand gibberish.

Dammit, I spilt my beer, that was funny.

I'd expect as much, just from seeing your avatar and signature alone^^^.

Ah man where is your sense of humor? It was funny and you know it....I was reading the relpy and

[size=10] BAM



There it was!

Ed/Rant et al,

Just to say this is a wonderful thread so keep it up.

Although I disagree with your premises Ed I do like the way you are putting them forward.

My personal opinion is that there is enough scientific theory to explain the universe without the need for a "creator". I feel that the holes in the theories are not evidence of god just evidence that we do not know everything yet.

As a scientist I have yet to come across anyone who can prove that God does not exist similarly no one has been able to prove he does.

The existence of God is (and always should be) a matter of faith.

Those who believe, need no proof. Those who need proof are lacking in faith.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by Tamahu

A big problem with humanity nowadays, is this Science VS. Religion schism, that in reality does not exist.

Religion and Science are one and the same, as I've shown here:

Originally posted by Tamahu




The Ray of Creation

Before the dawn of the Mahamanvantara (Sanskrit for "the great cosmic day"), Nothing (No-Thing/Eternal Siety) existed. All that was, was the Omeyocan (Nahuatl), the Absolute Abstract Space. It is here that the womb of the ocean of Divine Mother Space resides, waiting to be fecundated by the Eternal Cosmic Common Father in order to initiate the dawn of creation.

The womb of the Divine Mother Space is the Absolute, it is that which is the Siety, the original point of departure of everything existent.

The Absolute – Three Aspects

1. Ain (Hebrew: Nothing)- the unmanifested Absolute, the womb of the ocean of Divine Mother Space. This is where only the wind and the darkness exists.

2. Ain Soph (Hb: Limitless)- This is our atomic star that sends it’s Ray into the world in order to be cognizant of its own happiness. This is the Star of Bethlehem, that which guides the path of the Bodhisattva. This is the original point of departure, where everything comes from in the beginning of the Mahamanvantara and where everything returns during the Mahapralaya (Sanskrit for Cosmic Night).

3. Ain Soph Aur (Hb: Limitless Light)–The Ray of Creation. This is the Cosmic Christ, Quetzlcoatl (Nahuatl), Okidanok (Gurdjieff), Vishnu (Sans), Kukulcan (Mayan), etc. This is the source of all life and light in the universe. It is the ray that sacrifices itself in order to give birth to the multiple realms and forms upon the eternal Tree of Life. It Sacrifices itself in order to undergo multiple transformations, becoming more and more dense, more complicated so as to give life opportunity upon various planes of existence.

The Ray of Creation begins in the Absolute and ends in the Inferno, Avitchi, Greek Tarturus, or submerged Mineral Kingdom. On the following diagram, which depicts the Tree of Life, the Kabbalah, we see the Ray of Creation as the white line which zigzags down the Tree towards the abyss.....

The Ray of Creation

Now we see where The RZA(for all you Wu-Tang fans

) gets his Attribute: Ruler - Zig-Zag-Zig - Allah.

We half to Zig-Zag-Zig back up The Tree of Life, as to escape suffering and help others to do so; through Supreme Mathematics(Kabbalah).....

Peace

hmm. tamahu
Very nice graphics.

You know I think you are on your way to true enlightenment.
You are seeking to synthesize religion and science, this is a noble quest.

However, there can be no synthesis until the acknowlegment of the actual physical body of God is ascertained. A particular religion claims that we(man) are created in God's own image. This is not to be confused with esoteric symbolism. This is to be bluntly accepted as so. There must be a bodily Creator who has a head, eyes, hands, feet. There must be a physical dwellingplace for this diety. Scientifically it must be able to be calculated.

Yes, I do believe religion and science can be the same. But the question to which 'religion' is pondered.

The 'religion' of the bible clamis that there is a literal heaven in the earth(Job38:33).

There is a bound preventing ocean waves from covering the continents(psalm 104:9).

The earth, rather than a rotating sphere, was spread abroad.(Is 44:25)

The foundations of the earth are located in the center of an inverted earthen shell. Job 38:1-4.

Womb of the ocean? YES!!!
Yes, there is an actual womb of the ocean(s).
There is an ocean enclosed in the celestial womb above the stars.
Job 38:29
Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

Earth also is similar to comparison as a mother, too. It is like a womb in which we all live inside. In these last days, it has been prophesied that we will all understand this.

Jeremiah 31:22
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

Christ is cosmic because he is up in the center of the cosmos. He is living and breathing, just like you and me, he has real flesh, real blood, real body. He is not just an esoteric entity without form. He is the eternal Son of God and salvation can only be attained through his ONCE and for ALL sacrifice which he made 2,000 years ago on the cross. He is not changing but the same yesterday, today and forever. He wishes to have a real loving relationship with you.

And this verse which John the apostle wrote concerning determining which spirit(s) are from God and which are not....

Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh is not of God, but the spirit of anti-christ.

So, in your attempt to exalt the archaic teachings of gnosticism, you really should ask yourself where the body of Jesus went to. Where is he? The bible says that he went to sit at his Father's right hand. Well, good, now how many miles away is that?

You see, God is hiding right up in the sky, beyond the stars(which are not that far away).

And I'll bet that there is an actual tree of life in the center. Not a graphical concept of a tree, but a LITERAL TREE, with branches and leaves.

Don't let the devil trick you with slick, esoteric sophistry.

Jesus is real.

Ask and seek.


[edit on 9-5-2005 by Plumbo]

Awwww....I've been waiting to read this thread until I had the time to really think about the math that was promised in the title.

I had my notebooks, sliderules, computers, references, and beer all ready and then - d'oh! It was just another "no chance it was chance so it must be God" thread.

At least the beer didn't go to waste.



BTW - some of this was actually pretty funny.

----------- added ------------
I'm guessing that most posters here are US citizens - just guessing, though. Anyway, I wonder if any of the posters here from other cultures have noticed the USA tendency to think we can decide science by a majority vote? theology - that, too.

It seems that we have gotten into this really laughable state where we think that if most people agree, it must be true.

So, it's time for a vote to settle this once and for all - the Amurikan way, by God! Whatever the majority says, becomes a scientific fact, OK? OK!



[edit on 9-5-2005 by Al Davison]

"Atheism off Astronomy"
Articles by Wolsey Teller:www.infidels.org...
An extract:
In sum, the picture of the universe presented by astronomy is one of dismal stretches of time and space and unparalleled desolation. In the eternal abyss of space-bleak, cold, and dark -- are no signs of a Cosmic Consciousness.

Such is the message which astronomy brings: a message which is more reassuring to man in his more contemplative moods, since it proves that not even planets and world constellations can forever endure. His extinction at the hands of the blind agencies responsible for his existence will be followed in due time by the extinction of every star. "With universes as with mortals," says Jeans," "the only possible life is progress to the grave."

Out of star-dust man came, and into it he will sink again, as oblivious of his own passing existence as he was before that existence painfully and slowly evolved and separated him, for one brief instant, from the blindly-groping Whole. Into the eternal chasm of cosmic destruction all things flow. Matter, time and space are the sole permanents of existence: the rest perish. What then are kingdoms and scepters, miters and tiaras, honors and dishonors, in the solitudes of space! With princes and beggars, loves and hatreds, laughter and tears, ignorance and knowledge, they are doomed to destruction in the eternal maelstrom of space as the mightiest of suns!

Across the sky is written in blazing stars: waste, extravagance, futility! Little wonder that, peering through his telescope, the great astronomer Lalande [Buchner's Force and Matter, p. 105.] could say: "I have searched through the heavens, and nowhere have I found a trace of God."

Baloria

Originally posted by baloria
"Atheism off Astronomy"
Articles by Wolsey Teller:www.infidels.org...
An extract:
In sum, the picture of the universe presented by astronomy is one of dismal stretches of time and space and unparalleled desolation. In the eternal abyss of space-bleak, cold, and dark -- are no signs of a Cosmic Consciousness.

Such is the message which astronomy brings: a message which is more reassuring to man in his more contemplative moods, since it proves that not even planets and world constellations can forever endure. His extinction at the hands of the blind agencies responsible for his existence will be followed in due time by the extinction of every star. "With universes as with mortals," says Jeans," "the only possible life is progress to the grave."

Out of star-dust man came, and into it he will sink again, as oblivious of his own passing existence as he was before that existence painfully and slowly evolved and separated him, for one brief instant, from the blindly-groping Whole. Into the eternal chasm of cosmic destruction all things flow. Matter, time and space are the sole permanents of existence: the rest perish. What then are kingdoms and scepters, miters and tiaras, honors and dishonors, in the solitudes of space! With princes and beggars, loves and hatreds, laughter and tears, ignorance and knowledge, they are doomed to destruction in the eternal maelstrom of space as the mightiest of suns!

Across the sky is written in blazing stars: waste, extravagance, futility! Little wonder that, peering through his telescope, the great astronomer Lalande [Buchner's Force and Matter, p. 105.] could say: "I have searched through the heavens, and nowhere have I found a trace of God."

Baloria

Sounds pretty dismal. Although it is recorded that no man can see God and that verily he is a God that hides himself. (Is. 45) The problem with your thinking(and not just your's, but almost every Christian, so try not to get too offended) is that you see space and the universe as vast and endless. But if it were to be contained within the walls of earth, it's not that big at all. It rightly become "inner" space. Stars are very, very tiny

So cheer up Baloria, God's there, you just can't see him. And earth is not just another planet, not even a planet for that matter.

I'll let you in on a lil' secret.
Poor ole' Lalande forgot he was looking through another glass lens.

He loves you too.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Plumbo]

That is roughly comparable to the probability of rolling double sixes, 12 on two dice, 50,000 times in a row!)

But what if you have 2 loaded dice?

[edit on 12-5-2005 by UK_05_XM29]

I only read the first page, but I'd have to agree with Amuk for a couple reasons.

First of all, we can only judge what is here. Theoretical numbers are meaningful, yea, but theory does not always describe reality. The reality is that we're here. I haven't seen god(s) anywhere in my life, and until they make themselves known, I'm living under what we know.

Second, I'm a physicist, I've worked with physicist, I work with them now, and none think how the poster of this thread thinks. Don't even think that this is common thought...because it isn't.

Ugh, just as annoying as people who say Apollo 11 was a hoax.

Originally posted by T_Jesus
The reality is that we're here. I haven't seen god(s) anywhere in my life, and until they make themselves known, I'm living under what we know.

Do you want to see God or are you waiting for Him to show up? I understand how you feel since I was there at one time myself, so if your interested I'd be glad to help.


[edit on 12-5-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Sure it makes sense. How are rainbows made? By natural processes. Is their any intelligence behind it? No.

Rainbows are not a creation they are an illusion it would have been better to have said snowflakes, or Crystals but neither of those compare to the complexity of an amoeba for example.

Originally posted by T_Jesus
I only read the first page, but I'd have to agree with Amuk for a couple reasons.

First of all, we can only judge what is here. Theoretical numbers are meaningful, yea, but theory does not always describe reality. The reality is that we're here. I haven't seen god(s) anywhere in my life, and until they make themselves known, I'm living under what we know.

Second, I'm a physicist, I've worked with physicist, I work with them now, and none think how the poster of this thread thinks. Don't even think that this is common thought...because it isn't.

More common than you think.

I am currently an undergraduate physicist who personally knows several physicists who theorize, and are working to prove that the Universe was created. But don't take my word for it read this quote from Stephen Hawkings "A Brief History of Time."

In the hot big bang model there was not enough time in the early universe for heat to have flowed from one region to another. This means that the intial state of the universe would have to have had exactly the same temperature everywhere in order to account for the fact that the microwave background has the same temperature in every direction we look. The intial rate of expansion also would have had to be chosen very precisely for the rate of expansion still to be so close to the critical rate needed to avoid recollapse. This means that the intial state of the universe must have been very carefully chosen indeed if the hot big bang model is correct right back to the beginning of time. It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us.

[edit on 12-5-2005 by BlackJackal]

I for one think the universe is eternal - Its always been there. Most people cant comprehend that, but thats jus tmy opinion...

I cant see why it most people need to think that it is strange that there are some natural 'non-chaotic' occurences in nature. There just has to be! Humans are bound to seek out new ways of understanding things, and in the way, we'll find new ways of looking at stuff thats chaotic. Something might be chaotic one day, but logically and following a 'theme' the next due to new research. And if everything was totally random, then they would all follow this 'random'-theme.


Just look at the number 666 - I mean, how many 'straaaaange' occourences hasnt people found over the time? Its just, coincidence!