Catholic Annulments : The passing of a poison chalice ?

The annulment process is often long, usually lasting about a year or longer; the people who make up the marriage tribunal for your diocese must perform extensive research in determining if an annulment can be grantedwww.aboutcatholics.com... remarriage/

Browser informs the link is not secure . From the link :

Isn’t an annulment just a Catholic divorce? No. An annulment is not a Catholic divorce, bur rather says that the marriage never met the conditions to be considered sacramental. If at least one criterion for sacramental marriage was not met then the marriage can be considered invalid and an annulment will be granted. The annulment process is often long, usually lasting about a year or longer; the people who make up the marriage tribunal for your diocese must perform extensive research in determining if an annulment can be granted.

Now then , this came across the desk recently , it needs dealing with , and some insider knowledge . Google research has found malware activity lurking within this subject topic , so beware .

This is the issue in precis : 1. A British non-Catholic divorcee has received American Catholic paperwork announcing a tribunal over their previous marriage from a former wife who has applied for a Catholic Annulment .

2. Within the letter announcing the Tribunal, the applicant has produced clearly disprovable statements which amount to quite serious libel :she has accused her former spouse of being a violent paranoid schizophrenic , no less , claiming he was 'diagnosed' with the condition as a teenager , and hid this mental affliction from her while he pressured her into marriage , only to be controlling threatening and violent thereafter . Other apparent outright lies have been used.

3. The story according to the non-catholic recipient is that during the marriage he had discovered beyond doubt that she was a serial adulteress , or that he had fallen foul of a no-ties US nymphomanic in Britain effectively, (where they lived and were married) and had quietly agreed to the separation and subsequent civil divorce granted in the US , paid for by her family .

4. The paragraph from the quoted article contains something worrisome for any onlooker or indeed the unfortunate recipient of such bare-faced lies : specifically

The annulment process is often long, usually lasting about a year or longer; the people who make up the marriage tribunal for your diocese must perform extensive research in determining if an annulment can be granted

5. Based on point 4 vs 2 , the recipient would like to find out what processes of investigation the American Diocese (Catholic jurisdiction) will ask the British diocese (within which he lives) to carry out . In so far as questioning him directly (he has been asked to respond directly by letter- though lacks any kind form or instructions to do so) ,
can they turn up at his house to question him , or his neighbours or others that might know him ?
As far as we know no catholic investigators of a non catholic cannot receive medical files , but may work upon the word of a catholic which
is untrue , raising serious concerns about local besmirchment via intrusive and suggestive questioning and possible consequent suffering of the subject's relationships.

What we need to know is
a. how are they going to perform this 'extensive research'?

b. is there a discernable agenda against him in the motives of either the applicant or the church or both , while this libel is being spread to his own country for 'research' to be performed by his local diocese .

What we do know is : The catholics call the research/investigation process 'the acts' and they , according to their rules , invite the respondent , that is ,the recipient of this disturbing letter , to view the list of the 'acts' only during a closed, time limited session under the supervision of one of the tribunal members . This to any fair mind is not acceptable practise , to just announce a religiously motivated investigation into a non religious person which carries defamatory lies, and to the mind of the recipient , is not only a gross liability to his interests , but a serious attack upon his character .

What kind of further foul play might be expected from the applicant or the catholic church within which (for some reason) she wishes to marry ?

a reply to: ZIPMATT

The whole thing is moot.
"A British non-Catholic divorcee"
The marriage would be annulled simply for the fact that one of the parties is not Catholic. Also they could not be married in a Catholic church unless BOTH parties are Catholic. That in and of itself will annul the marriage.

The Catholic church keeps records of each and every person to be Baptized and Confirmed in the church so it is pretty easy to confirm that one of them is not Catholic.

a reply to: [post=23689201]UncleReamus

There are grounds of invalidity , on which a tribunal will judge the applicant's statement regarding the respondent, pertaining to the state of play in the minds of the partners before the marriage took place .

The stated grounds include by example eg :" Error about a Quality of a Person " , or "Ignorance of the Societal Nature of Marriage" or "Fraud or Deceit" , or "Force or Fear"

None of the listed grounds include "Lack of Catholicism" ?

In this case they used "Incapacity to Assume the Essential Obligation of Marriage due to a Psychic Cause" "Grave Lack of Discretion in Judgement" and "Error about the Quality of a Person"in tandem .

If it's going to be written off simply because of the non-catholicsm of one of the parties to the marriage , which they state in the letter they already know, then why bother sending anything or
even having a tribunal at all ?

www.providencejournal.com...

Heres another Not secure link coming top of the list from the search

"Reasons for marriage annulment catholic"

Purports to be "Top five reasons given for Catholic Marriage Annulment

Comes up Error Code 16 Security rules blocked your access to this content listed time date ip / proxy ip

It's not a moot thing if someone is being effectively stalked by religious wierdos is it

10.Does my ex-spouse have to agree or participate for an annulment to be granted? What is my ex-spouse is not Catholic and wants nothing to do with the process? What if I do not know where my former spouse is living? It’s not true that both spouses have to agree to petition to receive a Declaration of Nullity. Tribunal judges can hear the case, and grant an annulment even if the ex-spouse is against the idea of an annulment, or does not want to participate at all in the process. While it is always better for the case to have both parties as active participants, the case can proceed without the ex-spouse’s consent or participation. However, they will be notified by the tribunal that the case is proceeding, and will be given every opportunity to respond and participate. On occasion, a respondent cannot be found. The case can still proceed, and the respondent in that case is declared legally absent from the case. However, you will likely be required to make a good faith effort to provide a current address for your former spouse, or at the very least show what efforts you made in trying to locate him or her. On occasion there are situations in which a petitioner has a legal reason, such as a civil restraining order, to not want the other party to know of their whereabouts or to give them any information about themselves. In these circumstances, Canon Law Professionals can work with the tribunal to explore legal methods of protecting our client’s safety while fulfilling the requirements of the law.

From the website of 'Cannon Law Professionals' who need grammar corrections , and this is avoidance of advice to non-catholics

a reply to: ZIPMATT

That is odd becuase that is the reason my marriage was annulled.

Edit: nope i am wrong see later post.

a reply to: UncleReamus

You've given your advice in good faith , but there is plenty of odd about this whole business so far . It may be that your matter was not passed to a diocesan Tribunal ? Thank you

4.Are there different types of annulment cases? There are different types of annulment cases, depending on the circumstances of the marriage. Some are easier and quicker than others. Documentary cases, which include Absence of Form and Ligamen cases, are the simplest type of case and usually take only a few weeks to process. The documentary cases are fairly easy because they can be proven simply with the presentation of the correct documentation. However, these processes are only able to be used under very specific circumstances. Formal cases require an extensive autobiographical essay, witness testimony, an interview, and possible review by an expert counselor, so they tend to be more difficult and often can take a year to eighteen months to complete once they have been filed. Cases that must be processed in Rome, such as Favor of the Faith and Non-Consummated Marriages, also take a considerable amount of time to prepare, in addition to the time the case takes for Rome to adjudicate. Canon Law Professionals can help you determine what the most appropriate type of case to file, and what documentation you will need to best pursue your case.

CLP again

a reply to: ZIPMATT

Ok, i am man enough to admit that i made a mistake. You are correct, it is not being a non-Catholic, but being a non-Catholic without getting dispensation. Which is what me and my x did.

Might i suggest that you use the official resource for Cannon law. The Catechism of the Catholic church. That is the laws and bylaws of the Church basically and here is what it says about marriage between Catholics and No-Catholics:

Mixed marriages and disparity of cult

1633 In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a non-baptized person) requires even greater circumspection.

1634 Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. The temptation to religious indifference can then arise.

1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.137 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.138 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.139

1636 Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple's obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.

1637 In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: "For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband."140 It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this "consecration" should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.141 Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion.

Again sorry, my bad i made a mistake.

if the guy had a little money to spare, I'd suggest he go to a lawyer and ask them to write a nice letter in response pointing out that.
1. they are legally divorced.
2. there are any number of churches that would be willing to marry her so there is no need for them to be investigating him in any way. and
3. that there are some major accusations that are not only not true, but may prove to be damaging to his reputation, his current relationships, and job and they will be legally held responsible for any damage caused.

and oh, ya, no, he won't be co operating with them, no they don't have permission to access his health records, and yes, he is requesting the courts to grant him a restraining order to prevent their investigators from approaching him, his family, his home.

I agree with dawnstar. There's no reason for a non-Catholic to get involved in the blither and blather of Catholic legalisms. Just tell them to go to hell. Legally speaking, divorce is granted by the state judicial system. That is sufficient. Threaten them with a lawsuit. Get a restraining order. Refuse to participate in any way. It's a waste if time to get into what their canonical law says. Civil law ought to protect you with regards to access to medical records, at least in the US, where HIPPA grants an individual near-perfect privacy, and something the medical community takes very seriously. As I understand it, libel laws are stronger in the UK than they are in the US, so there is protection there, too. Realistically, the church cannot do more than a typical private investigator who is working outside the judicial system can. And BTW, OF COURSE non Catholics can be married in the Catholic church and it is a legal marriage. From the Catholic perspective, all they demand is that you agree to raise any children "in the faith." But once again, we know any number of Catholics who are like "Jack Mormons," i.e.: Catholic in name only.

a reply to: UncleReamus

That's absolutely ok , it's a valued contribution in getting to the bottom of it

Reply to Schylur and Dawnstar : Absolute non-co-operation does seem to be a widely recommended policy for this . It is tempting to refute the claims directly to the Tribunal as invited to do so, even potentially providing hard evidence to try to put the matter to rest ,
however the best case consequences would be that the applicant would be refused permission to remarry , but that may even draw an appeal , dragging it out longer , and as you say , dont work on their rules .
a worse case consequence of engaging at all (eg denying the false claims on paper) could be the drawing of investigation where none was necessarily intended , but the statement of the catholics is clearly that they intend to investigate .
What methods might PI's use , when theyre going incognito round to neighbours or friends asking awkward questions , evidence of actual damaging to the subject's interests might be hard to come across

a reply to: UncleReamus

My first wife is Catholic. I am not and never have been. We were married in a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest.

Loooong ceremony.

a reply to: ZIPMATT
that's what would worry me.
can you imagine some investigator, maybe even dressed in priest garb, going to your boss asking them if they have observed angry outbursts or you talking to no one or some other weird question to determine those accusations are true or not? no thanks!! maybe if I act arrogant enough, insulting enough in my reply, they might decide to give her the annulment based on the opinion I gave them that I was an arse without investigation.

a reply to: ZIPMATT

Here's the bottom line...

The burden of proving a case rests on the Petitioner, that is, the person who applies for an annulment.

www.hbgdiocese.org...

The ex-spouse doesn't need to do anything, unless they want to write a letter refuting every claim by their Catholic ex-spouse to drag the "investigation" out further. The investigation really hangs on how trustworthy they think the Catholic Petitioner is.

The other issue is how much the tribunal would actually "investigate" in terms of intruding upon the ex. The Catholic church has lawyers, too, and I'm guessing they would be very reluctant to be terribly intrusive. In other words I highly doubt you will be seeing Catholic priests going door to door asking neighbors if they know how nuts the ex is. These guys know there are two sides to every marriage issue and they also know this whole thing is for the ex-wife, not the ex in the UK, i.e.: He doesn't give a crap what the Catholic Church has to say on the matter. So it's not in the best interests of this tribunal to go to the expense of actually "investigating" the ex in person. I still think it would be best not to "fight" the accusations, per se, but to put them on notice that no harassment will be tolerated.

Catholics are ritual evil spreaders, pay this ritual child fukker cult no mind only flaming pitchforks.

Anyone who defends ritual child rape, go ahead, give me your IP. Make my day, child fukker.

a reply to: schuyler

That's a fair assessment , but the only trouble is that the informant does have concerns' about what the applicant and or the church in particular the catholic might say or do next or are liable to be doing already.
Hence that's why we're here .
In overall appraisals , the hypothetical wide assertion that 'the subject is being aggressively stalked by a religious cult' cannot be ruled out .
On the other hand , via limitation of the possibilities , the wide assertion that 'the subject is simply part of a typical process, plenary to the religious beliefs of others' is also still on the table .
Meanwhile the indicators , ie statements of the apllicant and the respondent , and also the church explanatory documentation sent , including names and addresses , as variable , still point to investigation of the any/all//potential investigative techniques being warranted .
The issue was passed to separate agencies as it has the makings of a tall order .
Further reading : The Religious Land Use And Institutionalised Persons Act
Church Investigatory Powers Regulations
The Vatican and Environmental Stewardship E.Braun
Other Sources
Daily Mail Express

a reply to: dawnstar

Good idea , perhaps - to effectively put a finish to it first by giving them what they want . Snap results, that is definitely a potential solution , investigation over .
Even to the point of writing back saying , "Yep , he is all locked up and away safe in an institution somewhere , no worries then , marry away ! I think you've solved it !

a reply to: ZIPMATT

well, I was just thinking about acting as anti-catholic as possible... and making comments like yep, I knew it was a mistake to marry a catholic when I married her, now here you are, years later trying to stick you nose in my business..
maybe even accusing them of being a bunch of pagans and not really christian.

a reply to: dawnstar
and, oh ya....
make sure to tell them to stay the heck away from your kids!! danged pedophiles can't be trusted ya know!!!