Apache Killings

Hi, redpig.

Were you a 68 xray or a 67 romeo?

The reason I asked is that the D-model/Longbow is different enough so that there's a new MOS, 68 yankee, given that the airplane is built around a MIL-1553 bus, and has completely different DP's, WP's, etc. The 67 romeo hasn't changed that much; what we used to do (before they moved the differences training to Eustis) was do a three-week differences training for A-model romeos.

I don't know how long ago you did your training, but was a part of it in Mesa? Because if it were, I'm sure we passed each other in the halls a lot. I wrote some courseware, and know both the romeo and xray/yankee instructors in Building 530.

U2U me or send me a note at [email protected]; we probably have a few friends in common!

Global Security also reports the Ah-64 uses/used DU ammo:


www.globalsecurity.org...
www.globalsecurity.org...

Janes reports that it uses NATO Aden/DEFA 30 mm ammo. If you search out that ammo it will bring you back to sites shawing that there are DU variations.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by skippytjc]

Originally posted by blowin
Incorrect.

The Humanitarian Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC), which include the various Geneva Conventions, do regulate the conduct of war.

www1.umn.edu...

Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 75 U.N.T.S. 287, entered into force Oct. 21, 1950.

PART I

GENERAL PROVISIONS
Article 1

The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.
Article 2

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.
Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. [blowin's bolding]

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

You can read all about the LOAC on the University of Minnesota website, from where the above excerpt was taken.

The US ratified the 1949 Geneva Conventions in 1955. Various US military websites deal with the LOAC:

www.nwc.navy.mil...

www.au.af.mil...

www.forces.gc.ca... among others.

ok,
whats your point?
i know that both sides have violated world wide conventions and regulations.
so why bother listing all this?

my reply was for smokinjoe.
sorry, should have put that in there

Oops, accidental reply. Wanted to edit a spelling in last one. Sorry.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by skippytjc]

Apaches 300 cannon fires mixed burst or DU, HE, and tracer rounds. These explosions are he rounds as i think. This cannon is "smallest" weapon on apache. Others are usualy 70mm hydra unguided rockets and hellfire at rockets with HEAT warheads.

Originally posted by Adam_S
Apaches 300 cannon fires mixed burst or DU, HE, and tracer rounds. These explosions are he rounds as i think. This cannon is "smallest" weapon on apache. Others are usualy 70mm hydra unguided rockets and hellfire at rockets with HEAT warheads.

We arent doubting that, there was just some question wether they actually fired DU rounds.

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
Well I am sure that three men and three soft skinned vehicles warrant that kind of attention in US military logic i.e. killing an ant with a sledgehammer.

It just looks like target practise to me. The voices of the pilots do not mention what the guy buy the tractor is doing nor do they show and sign of stress that fire might be returned. The clip has a routine feel to it. I cant prove or disproe anything and you ppl are to dumb to get the point.

You obviously know nothing about military tactics (or common sense). You don't set up fair fights with your enemy (because you might get killed ). No, before you go into a fight, you make sure you have everything you can at your disposal to WIN the fight. Sheesh!

Originally posted by Amuk
I loved it

I wonder what the unsuspecting farmer was trying to pull out of the object to the left?

The second one that was shot? Watch the film and you will see that instead of running or hiding this "poor innocent farmer" was trying to pull something out of the machine to the left.

BTW how do you know they were turnip farmers?

You are One sad puppy,how old are you by the way?? ...It's all fun & safe sitting behind your computer,I'll bet just about anything that at the sight of blood you'll wet yourself like a baby,hell maybe even stink up a whole street.
Why don't you take some time off your presiouce desk and go fight for your 'Democracy' see how much you'll love that.
Is'nt that what your Presi,is trying to preach here in Europe,but I tell you something else,he sold it to you guys,and by your enthusiasem I see how he's managed that,but here in Europe He can wait till hell frezzes over before we believe a word of his slimey #.
Now he claims he went in Iraq to bring freedom ,not to seize the WMD's,what a funny joker,27 standing ovations he got in the state of the union address,HaHa Ha...Here in Europe he got one,when he stopped talking.
We stopped feeling sorry for you some time ago,and with your type of comments,what would you expect.
If Only he concentrated on depriving your citizens from their rightful social secuirities and the rest,We don't need your presidents wise intervention nor does the rest of the world.And I tell you something else,we could'nt care less about your future if it had'nt strings attached to ours,so go on behaving like a rutless teen,if that makes you feel like a though guy,you get your skills of being an asshole from your great leader,but in that case I would suggest you look up for the redneck sites,and keep this vile hatered from this one,I could'nt give two tosses, if you were the director of this site I would still hit you as hard,probably even harder.
I have decided to stay away from this sight as much as i can,scince it seem to me it's packed with all mouth and no action.Have you ever seen a human shread to bits and see life depart from someone's eye's ,to feel a squeeze from a dying individu who's only wish is to let his family know he died for a cause and that he'll be with them in spirit.
Your reply just made my blood boil.You are so nieve about life itself,that you don't even have the right to appreciate death....
Do you get the picture of how low down the civilized path you are.
The tough guy!! behind his desk,a pen pusher ,who could'nt probably shoot a 22cal.if his life depended on it,..Oh so cool. right.. I tell you what's cool ;Courage and balls to stand up for what you believe to protect your country and family & friends.I bet you're the sort of guy who would quickly run a mile or as you guys say 'do a carl lewis' at the sight of trouble,leaving your little miss 'tight ass' fend for her self.....Think about that ..funny cappron......
You can't even tell the difference between a farm field and a pavement,

Forget your Ritalin Re?


Man. I was going to cut and paste your reply into MS word, but I dont know if the spell check could handle it. Maybe I should try Babelfish, as I am not even certain that was English.

Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by redpig01

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I was under the impression that the Apache 30mm system could be outfitted to use DP rounds. Am I misinformed?

The Depleted Uranium rounds are way too heavy for the Apache, they just can't pack enough powder behind the round to fire one, The A-10's have DU but the 30mm round is also about 18 inches long , which is a huge bullet, where as the Apaches is only about 9 inches long and about 4 inches of that is bullet, they don't even come in tracer rounds for that matter only a training round which is a lead slug and High Explosive round. An ammo box for these contains 110 rounds coicidentally it weighs 110lbs including the loading trays, so each round weighs approx. 1 lbs, the depleted uranium is considerable heavier, I am not sure of its weight though, but any way even HE rounds move very slowly you can actually see them going down range in FLIR. If you watch that video you can see the "puffs" of smoke that is the HE rounds exploding, they are basically a granade going off, not really like a bullet hitting the ground. I am 100% sure they do not have DU for the AH-64's 30 mm cannon. It is a devasting weapon in itself though, if you can keep it from jamming.

You are incorrect. The Apache can use DU rounds:

"The 30mm x 173 GAU-8/A ammunition was among the most effective ammunition used in Operation Desert Storm with proven performance against all targets, including tanks, armored and light vehicles. The 30mm lightweight family of ammunition was developed to optimize the air-to-ground mission of the U.S. Army AH-64 Apache helicopter. This ammunition family is also compatible with all 30mm x 113 gun systems.

The PGU-14/B API Armor Piercing Incendiary round has a lightweight body which contains a sub-calibre high density penetrator of Depleted Uranium (DU). In addition to its penetrating capability DU is a natural pyrophoric material which enhances the incendiary effects. Depleted uranium results from the enriching of natural uranium for use in nuclear reactors. Natural uranium is a slightly radioactive metal that is present in most rocks and soils as well as in many rivers and sea water. Natural uranium consists primarily of a mixture of two isotopes (forms) of uranium, Uranium-235 (U235) and Uranium-238 (U238), in the proportion of about 0.7 and 99.3 percent, respectively. Nuclear reactors require U235 to produce energy, therefore, the natural uranium has to be enriched to obtain the isotope U235 by removing a large part of the U238. Uranium-238 becomes DU, which is 0.7 times as radioactive as natural uranium. . Since DU has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, there is very little decay of those DU materials. When manufactured as 30mm rounds, each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium. The projectile is encased in a 0.8 mm-thick aluminum shell as the final DU round. "


www.fas.org...

I was an "Armament guy" 68X on the Apaches, that means I maintained the weapons systems on them, including arming them for combat or gunneries. I never saw or heard of a single DU round for them only the HE rounds. I was
in for 7 years working on them.


Off_the_street.. I sent you an email, wouldn't let me U2U, said I didn't have enough posts

[edit on 1-3-2005 by redpig01]

Red, I dont doubt that in YOUR experience you are correct. But there are far to many resources out there that all state that the Apache can and does in fact shoot DU rounds.

Is it possible in your experience you simply never had the pleasure of working with DU rounds? Were you responsible for all the Army's Apache's armament in every conflict? All 743 of them? For all 20+ years of service?

Again, I dont doubt that you personally never encountered DU rounds, but that doesnt mean they dont shoot them.

Originally posted by Horus_Re

You are One sad puppy,how old are you by the way?? ...It's all fun & safe sitting behind your computer,I'll bet just about anything that at the sight of blood you'll wet yourself like a baby,hell maybe even stink up a whole street.

I am 54 and have seen more blood and death than you could ever imagaine.

Why don't you take some time off your presiouce desk and go fight for your 'Democracy' see how much you'll love that.

Already did skippy

We stopped feeling sorry for you some time ago,and with your type of comments,what would you expect.

you are breaking my heart skippy

Have you ever seen a human shread to bits and see life depart from someone's eye's

more times than I care to think of.

Your reply just made my blood boil.You are so nieve about life itself,that you don't even have the right to appreciate death....
Do you get the picture of how low down the civilized path you are.
The tough guy!! behind his desk,a pen pusher ,who could'nt probably shoot a 22cal.if his life depended on it,..Oh so cool. right.. I tell you what's cool ;Courage and balls to stand up for what you believe to protect your country and family & friends.I bet you're the sort of guy who would quickly run a mile or as you guys say 'do a carl lewis' at the sight of trouble,leaving your little miss 'tight ass' fend for her self.....Think about that ..funny cappron......

you dont think I am cool? Now I am really sad.

You dont know a thing about me buddy.

Originally posted by Horus_Re
And I tell you something else,we could'nt care less about your future if it had'nt strings attached to ours,so go on behaving like a rutless teen,if that makes you feel like a though guy,you get your skills of being an asshole from your great leader,but in that case I would suggest you look up for the redneck sites,and keep this vile hatered from this one,I could'nt give two tosses, if you were the director of this site I would still hit you as hard,probably even harder.
I have decided to stay away from this sight as much as i can,scince it seem to me it's packed with all mouth and no action.

Allow me to help you stay away. If only this were the worst of your attacks.

You're on global ignore and posting ban until further notice. Don't hold your breathe.

MadGrimbo

Great post – I voted for you. May I use this slightly modified quote in my signature line?

There is nothing more dangerous in this world than letting an injured (I say ANY) terrorist live, as until they are dead, they will be bent on making sure you and your family are.