Apache Killings

Originally posted by JamesBlonde

Actually it was GWB jr who declared and initiated the war on 'terror'

Nope, it was bin ladin. He openly declared war in accordancewith custom. He attacked the twin embassies. Then a US warship, then a dual attack on the twin towers and the top of the defense department.

Why didnt the US invade Saudi Arabia???

Because the saud clan can be coerced without being invaded. Iraq had demonstrated it was willing to go to war previously, refused to cooperate with the first inspectors, the whole world agreed it needed to be under sanctions, and couldn't demonstrate to the inspectors the second time around that it had no weapons. Why not attack it? If saudi arabia meet those requirements, then why shouldn't the US attack it? Or any other country?

Those three turnip farmers with their tractors of mass destruction and secret bag of whatever could have been spared.

Demonstrate that they are not soldiers.

Please dont get me wrong. I am not personally criticizing the helicopter crew in this vid,

Why? According to you they are murders following illegal orders. You should be calling for their court martial and execution if oyu beleive those guys were farmers. Farmers of turnips of all things.

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
Actually rules of engagement state that in an open conflict the enemy can only be engaged in bearing the insignia or device of the enemy. Or, failing this, they show itent of hostile action against friendly forces.

if its an offensive mission that doesnt apply.

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
Actually rules of engagement state that in an open conflict the enemy can only be engaged in bearing the insignia or device of the enemy. Or, failing this, they show itent of hostile action against friendly forces.

Exactly!!! JB, you don't know if they just arrived back from killing coalition troops or if they returned from an ammo bunker supplying whoever.....we were not there....why assume the worst, and yes that vehicle looks alot like those used by many middle eastern militiants/terrorists.
You're right on the ROE but that opens a large window and a whole other debate.

Any video can be made to tell different stories depending on the presentation of the media and the state of mind of the viewer. Look at the Zapruder film for reference.

Originally posted by javarex
Question, was it a rake? Was he pulling it out (at a frantic pace) to rake the field while his pal was getting shot??? Maybe it was a shoulder fired missile. Or some other type of small arms and not an RPG to be exact. But give me a break, this is IRAQ, not Oklahoma. We are in the middle of an insurgency, and these guys were obviously setting up some sort of ambush. Don't be a moron pal, use your brain. Give me your email address, I will give you the damn video, then you can actually see it. If you still think they are turnip farmers, I will come over and beat you silly

B I T C H

Now now.......Did you read my previous post before going off on this tirade? All I asked was how do you know if it was an RPG. Simple question. No need for all the hatefullness now........

Originally posted by redpig01
Actually the 30mm on the apaches are not similair in any way to an A-10's 30mm, except that they're 30mm around. The apaches 30mm only come in 2 flavors, training and HE (High Explosive) they do not have a depleted uranium round on these.

That was the point I was trying to make, 30 MM doesnt have to be DU to cause some major damage, I didn't think Apaches used DU rounds but used Tows against Tanks. Am I right?

Its been over 30 years since I was in the Army and haven't kept up on the Equipment

If you google apache gunship death ( see PS at bottom), or similar, you will be taken to a website that is very biased/anti-war, to say the least. Nearly all the material on there is skewed in favour of the creators views. Some of the info is downright lies. I know exactly where this clip originated from, because i argued with the guy about it, about 6-9 months ago, and i'll state the case as thus:
i had this movie, but my movie was longer. At the start of the movie, the pilot is talking to someone (either mission control relating info from someone on the ground, or someone on the ground directly), and they are discussing a mobile surface to air missile launcher. Pilot tells control, he has them, and 2 guys from the truck make their way to the launcher, carrying something (presumably a missile), at which point pilot says something to his co-pilot about taking them out,, and they start setting the copter up for that end, and then the shooting starts.
My version ended in same place as this version.
Now, i related this same story to the guy who's site i found the shortened version on. I told him, they weren't farmers....or, they could have been farmers, but farmers that new how to operate a SAM. Either way, your vid is missing the first section, which would clarify that situation somewhat. The vid that you have, combined with emotional rhetoric, are portraying it wrongly. He wrote back saying i should send him it. Which i did, and i asked him if he would replace the one he had up on his site, with the one i was sending, so people could see and hear what was really going on. He replied after that, saying he still believed the war was wrong and america was killing innocents and yadda yadda yadda.
Anyway, because the video showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the footage was of an american copter taking out an iraqi mobile SAM team, he didn't replace the video......
So what you see is a decietfully edited version, which corresponds to what he wants you to believe, and forwarding his cause, and of course, people suck it up, like good gullible liberal citizens should.
I just thought i'd let you all in on the amount of spin that this little clip has.

PS. thinking about this, i believe the original video was named 'blackhawk..something', not apache. This vid still isn't as good as the 15 minute AC130-U_afghanistan video! At least no one tried to pass those dead dudes off as a group of innocents victims, slaughtered by the imperialist infadels... Probably too hard to explain away the bunker complex, IMHO!

"dont believe the hype" - flava flave

[edit on 22-2-2005 by cruzion]

I have the full video footage of this event, and you can hear the pilot, and gunner talking to ground control.
The pilot asks ground control what he wants done, ground control asks if they are armed. Whilst this is happening, the people on the ground try to play a cat and mouse game with the apache.

There is a long watch to see what there are up to, and when, and only when it is clear that they are combatants, does the order to fire come from ground control. In the full, high res footage i have got, it is quiet clear that the people are trying to set up a shot on the helicopter, hence the panic when he sees his friend get gunned down by the apache.

If you want the full, high res footage, u2u me with your e-mail, and i will be happy to send it to you.

Apache crew- 3, Terrorist scum- 0.

Like I said it's all a matter of careful timing and leading the audience to believe what you want them to. With access to a movie and some editing equipment one can do just about anything. Removing the first part and timing it to look like he was viciously gunning down innocents picking vegetables could be done by most junior high students nowdays.

If I videotaped a fight where guy A. gets suckerpunched by guy B. and subsequently beats him up, I can edit the tape to make it look like he just attacked guy B for no reason. All it takes is someone with the software and a agenda.

I'm not for this war but the fact that so many people just buy this stuff hook line and sinker is sick. It has been done by propagandists since films invention. Now it's done by some guy in his basement.



[edit on 22-2-2005 by Veltro]

Welcome to thewonderful world of the war on terror... Or is it now a war on Turnips???

Every kid knows that turnips suck so I think killing turnip farmers is good. So beware you broccoli, spinach, and chicken liver farmers cause your next.

But seriously, The next time you are wounded under a truck by 30mm cannon, do yourself a favor and stay put.

OK. I need some help here.

I got the full video, which is just over 12mb. to send it as an e-mail, yahoo permit nothing over 10mb.

How can i get it compressed down to a sendable size? I would appreciate peoples help on this, as if i can get it compressed, i will send it to people who want it.

Originally posted by cruzion
Anyway, because the video showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the footage was of an american copter taking out an iraqi mobile SAM team, he didn't replace the video......
So what you see is a decietfully edited version, which corresponds to what he wants you to believe, and forwarding his cause, and of course, people suck it up, like good gullible liberal citizens should.
I just thought i'd let you all in on the amount of spin that this little clip has.

It doesn't really matter, you could show them a film of one of them holding a SAM while his partners sawed offed the heads of kindergärtners and some people would still wail and moan over the fate of the terrorists OR say it was a CIA staged event. Anything to keep up the front that all Americans are blood thirsty baby killers, whoops, I mean turnip farmer killers



[edit on 22-2-2005 by Amuk]

HERE IS THE FULL UN-EDITITED FOOTAGE, FROM THE START OF THE ENCOUNTER ONWARDS.

THIS IS GREAT FOR THOSE THAT THINK THESE WERE JUST "TURNIP FARMERS"

jessicool4.blogspot.com...

GRAB IT WHILE YOU CAN! SCROLL DOWN TO THE POWER OF WAR, AND CLICK ON THE "3 IRAQIS" LINK....

took a while, but i found it.

[edit on 22-2-2005 by MadGrimbo]

Originally posted by Souljah
i have seen that movie before too.

really effective against infantry this m230 30mm automatic gun that apache attack helicopter is equipped with. it was made for armor penetration and with its 625 shots per minute, it can deliver a heavy punch to any armored vehicle, not to mention any infantry. its ammo supply is about 1200 rounds, so a good two minues of non-stop fire.

a real killing machine.



www.fas.org...


but who ever these people were,
they had no chance at all against such a beast.
not without any anti-aircraft weapons.
then this apache is toast.


[edit on 22-2-2005 by Souljah]

I noticed this bird had a round count of a little over 300 rounds at start and 209 rounds at finish this would indicate to me this bird had been on a sorte and this was not their first target , so where is the rest of the video .

Kinda funny people only found a problem with this one part of the video when obviously there had been atleast more than one inguagement for that bird that night and the bird had expended over 700 rounds already on other targets.


Anyone find this just a little to convienient that this is the only portion discussed.

the apache can carry up to 1200 rounds of ammo. depending on what mission it is doing, it will vary the load out.

www.army-technology.com...

But, you are missing the point. We are discussing this part of the mission, the so called "turnip farmers", and this is what the full video shows....before and after are of little concern in this debate.

BTW, AH-64 gunships are not allways fully loaded... im not going to bore you about "in " and "out" of ground effect, AGL lift specs, but, in a desert, at night, an apache would be wise to keep its load down, and manouverability up. 300 rounds, 2 rocket pods, and maybe 4 hellfires would be a good recce load out.

This is supposed to be a link to the full video if anyoone wishes to see it shows supposedly that these men where throwing away weapons at the first of contact.






Full link video not just kill part

If above link dont work try this one and click first link for full version













[edit on 22/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

someone asked the capability of this gun here ya go also check out the maneuvering capability of this bird



note they engage a tank a concrete wall target very thick and but the gun is in here to as well as rockets etc and all are duck and cover or long range hits


Apache gun footage











[edit on 22/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

DR

I cant get the first link to work

Originally posted by Amuk
DR

I cant get the first link to work

I will find the link on the search page and you can route thru that way ok




did the second link work

[edit on 22/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

amuk try this see if it works click on the first link for full version.






If first link dont work go to this site and click first link