POLITICS: Internet Replacing Mainstream Media: Update 16-3-05

Originally posted by NoTV4ME

- we are in a 'golden age' of free information - enjoy it while it lasts.

Very true.

But IMO - we CAN protect it. By speaking out and shouting loud.

We were doing so well discussing the differences in media and their merits untill we slid into a Bush bash....

Soficrow levels the anti-bush weapon and fires....Bush Used Tax Dollars for Propaganda
In her post she quotes her supporting link...

The accountability office said the videos "constitute covert propaganda" because the government was not identified as the source of the materials, which were distributed by the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

yet Sofi's anti-rage is such that she misplaces accountabillity for this by spreading it to the entire administration and thus specifically her target desjour, by easily labeling her link "Bush Used Tax Dollars".

WHO IS TO BLAME?
Sofi's own propaganda...errrr i mean linked source cited says who produced the videos. The Office of National Drug Control Policy.
Lets learn about them.
www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov...

They provide some history,

The White House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), a component of the Executive Office of the President, was established by the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988.

Ok so indeed this IS an office of the executive branch.

Who is in Charge?
The Director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy is
John P. Walters, affectionatly known as the Drug Czar.

Hmm ok now we know the key agency involved and its director, weve narrowed the blame yet still there is some left to spread...

From a link on the Offices site titled FAIR ACT
www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov...

Pursuant to the Federal Activities Inventory Reform (FAIR) Act, be advised that the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) does not perform any commercial activities by in-house employees. The following activities, which are capable of being performed by private vendors, have been contracted out:

it then lists the following

Audiovisual Products and Services
Computer Systems Support
Telecommunications
Photography
Transportation
Special Studies and Analysis
Advertising and media relations for the National Youth Anti-Drug Media Campaign

Now notice then that they are outsourcing both the audiovisual production as well as the advertising and media relations aspect of this office to a private contractor. Like these people have no culpabillity in the resulting questionable ads?

If you people want heads hear are several far more directly accountable for the ads than our favorite Presidential pin cushion.
Our leaders in government would be remiss in their duties if they WERE NOT aware of and using some type of Public Relations tool to help exert both policy and influence.

Now as this misuse of federal funds occured in the broadcast tv environment...as its such a big deal...one can see this as an example of the power of video.....the internet has a LONG way to go to improve the availability, ease of use, storage size, and other things inorder to threaten mainstream television. It costs lots of $$$ to go out, shoot, edit and preproduce good video/compelling segments.....and do this regularly and widespread enough to supply the demands of a popular web info site.

Use of the internet is also a far mor active and participatory form of media than is TV.....meaning there will be times where humans just want to sit passivly and digest instead of having to activly think, type, read etc etc....this is something that wil also help TV maintain its power in relation to what the net can offer.

Cost can still be a limiting factor...first you need to own a tv and radio, now a computer too,+internet access fees? and power them all....soon information itself will be the purview of the elite, or only those that can afford to access it. Sort of like Stern moving to satalite radio....while its a great move for him and spells a turning point in radio productions as well as for commercial radio.
The big minus is now in America instead of having "free airwaves" in order to exerise your right to say "bad words" on your radio show or choose to listen to that,
youve got to pay.
Isnt that like extortion of your freedom of speech?

The same is true of the internet...it leaves poor people out of the loop...at least they still broadcast tv for free in most areas, as crappy as that sounds, you can still use rabbit ears and get entertained and informed.
Use of the net requires a computer and internet access plus the know how to use it to start with....often things in short supply in poor homes.

Internet credibillity will still remain the critical issue keeping any but the biggest sites (which would be commercialized) from becomming recognized as legitimate reliable and trustworthy as sources of information.

Open-Source is the answer to the peoples prayers. They can't control what they can't own. It's that simple. The Open Source Movement is successfully defending the rights of internet users everywhere. The world will change, it will never stop, but as long as the internet exists, it will remain free.

It was an idea that took off like wildfire, free information, globe spanning connectivity, resource sharing, online communities. Ideas are unstoppable once they get loose; look at Christianity, or Communism. The Internet will never be controlled. It may die, but it won't be caged, and it won't be owned.

In the world of the Internet, Tech is God. He who has the Tech, owns the playing field. Old white men in Italian suits sitting in drafty golden towers don't have the Tech. They pay people to use the Tech for them, they don't even understand how it works. The people who have the Tech are as diverse a group of people as you're likely to find. They come from a host of different countries, speak a bunch of different languages, and other than their interests and their values, they have nothing in common.

That's what's so beautiful about the Internet. It was an idea that brought people together, across national and cultural boundaries. They came together and now fight side by side to keep their mutual kingdom safe and enjoyable for the masses. The real Global Village is 1's and 0's.

I think maybe it's time for all countries to retreat back to their borders, and let's do a little experiment. Let's try to establish a utopia on the internet, and then transplant it into RL. It may seem reactionary and nationalistic, but I think it would solve a LOT of the problems the world is currently facing. The internet could be the linking fibre to keep people of different countries together, even when apart. We can still learn from our neighbors across the globe, exchange ideas and students and tourists.

In the end I think the Internet is here to stay, and it will continue to be available to people across the world as long as there are concerned citizens of this common state who make it their duty to protect our occasional digital home.

Of course labeling them terrorists is the reaction of the government. For some reason people go along with it. Maybe one day all the good guys' luck will run out and the Internet will cease to exist. Another beautiful Idea snuffed out by Greed and Control, two of the oldest Religions(Ideas).

In either case, enjoy it while you can. I second that motion.

I have to agree with Soficrow. The Bush bashing is total justified. The media world seems to not care who picks up the bills. Fine, thats freedom at its best. But the whitehouse shouldn't be following suit. The GOP has used main stream media to push a new political reality. There are only to parties now the GOP and the far left. Well its not that simple. This leaves no room for growth or sharing of ideas. The media or should I say the news, in my mind, should help others understand their world not make one up for them. Thats what dateline or e is for.

Dirk D says,

I have to agree with Soficrow. The Bush bashing is total justified.

Hmm so when shown the actual chain of command with accountabillity, you still aviod saying those with a more direct hand in this are somehow not accountable but Bush is?
Please state your justifications for not holding the proper people accountable and misplacing the blame where you would more like to see it.

Dirk D claims,

The GOP has used main stream media to push a new political reality.

Hmm so an office of the government with about a 20 yr history of making these kinds of ads against drugs only acts for the GOP eh? NO democrats have ever appointed a Drug Czar to head this Office before eh?

In fact if i were to believe this line of reasoning, I would assume that no democrats ever have used any type of P.R. firms, speechwriters, or their positions to shape the "political reality".

Please enough with the partizan blame game...realize that most of politics IS P.R.
Denial of this reality is only embracing ignorance.

Image makers, speech writers, personal stylists like make-up artists, wardrobe choice, and entire firms of people are used by the government to get out whatever message the agency is charged with.
These are all just tools in the communications toolbox.

These tools are applicable to either the internet or broadcast media.
Other tools are used as well....

But OMG...politicians use tools! such a revalation...
No DUH!!

CazMedia, you can't use one office in the whitehouse to support your point. You are correct, people will use media outlets for their needs this has happen thoughout time. The issue isn't who is or isn't, it's what the outcome will be. This misuse and misinfo will never stop, yes. How does that make it right? Bush's use just shows how far to one side this nation can be taken without a battle or public mandate. Its good to be the king. Fine, but I can still judge the man on his actions. Even if he support my issues using his current tools and media cronies it would be wrong. He is no better than Putin.

Dirk D claims,

CazMedia, you can't use one office in the whitehouse to support your point.

Why the hell not? Soficrow just did the same thing to support her allegation that "Bush is guilty". Heck i even started my thread by use of HER cited source material.
If her point was to finger Bush by use of her post citing the misdeeds of ONE office of the Whitehouse, i can certantly do the same to ask questions about where the TRUE culpabillity lies, especially using her own link as a source. Get real!

Dont blame me for pointing out a lack of objective accountabillity in denying an allegation where blame is being incorrectly assigned in a zeal to try and "get Bush". Put the blame where it lies and go after those who took the actions, made the video, approved it for use by this office, etc etc...

Trying to hold Bush accountable is shooting for the wrong target and you'll NEVER pin this onto him....notice NOWHERE in the cited links do they say BUSH was responsible for anything, gee ask yourself why...
because they are responsible for not making wild allegations as printing them would be slander and make them lible. Its about having some CREDIBILLITY.
Fortunatly for anyone who blathers on an internet site, there is more room for these wild accusations thru leaps of faith, to go unpunnished by those accused in such a manner.
Meaning Sofi's rants are unlikley to cause Bush much if any tangible loss, and she is unlikley to be called out on this except other people.

This in no way makes a slanderous remark based on a stretch of the truth
a true statement, or an unbiased one.

dont let zealous blinders cause you to not see the whole picture.

Ok, ok caz youre right and thats a sorry fact for the US. You and I both know who is up the chain but its not going to be him I can pin point, fine. You and your way of thought will only help feed the igorance. Its too easy to call me out. Your right, but you know my gross over statement isn't wrong just gross.

Caz - you apparently overlooked the rest of the article...



Bush Used Tax Dollars for Propaganda

"The Government Accountability Office reported on Thursday that mock videos produced by the Bush administration "constitute covert propaganda" and violate Federal law. The Bush administration violated the same law last May with Medicare "news" segments targetting the elderly. The Accountability Office also found that federal agencies under the Bush administration distributed editorials and newspaper articles written by government officials without identifying them, which also constitutes "covert propaganda" and violates Federal law."



The problem is much bigger than you claim - and more news comes out weekly. The Bush-plant journalist gay prostitute Gannon is only one example in a long list.

IMO - I am not a "Bush-basher." ...I criticize any administration of any party. I consider it to be my job as a responsible citizen.


.....Back to the topic, instead of the illustrations, this administration does use the internet - and tries to censor information and manipulate discussion.

...So how does one cope? Play the same games back? Or what?



.

Sofi claims,

The problem is much bigger than you claim - and more news comes out weekly.

Lets take this as a true statement.

If so, then why waste time pointing AWAY from the people MOST accountable for this situation?
Why are we not pointing it directly at where the problem lies instead of trying to use this to support a partizan position?
By not assigning the blame where it truely belongs, nothing can be accomplished except what? Rhetoric support.

And even IF you correctly put the blame on the right people, just pointing the finger is only part of the battle and still does little more than apply hot air to the problem.
Actually DOING somthing to try and get action against those that CAN be targeted is the follow thru that most citizens wont do.

again, having the right target to apply blame to will maximize efforts to get results with, instead of trying to thinly spread this blame to the entire administration.

Its no wonder noone has been able to pin the tail on Bush yet, as they are always trying to use thin, and distant acts, removed from the President, to try and bag him with...like trying to blame the entire Bush administration (thus Bush himself) for the actions of a few within this large group that would be most accountable for the actions.

Misdirection is a common and basic tactic that both magicians and media/info pro's use to keep your attentions on one thing while doing another...
dont be fooled by this old trick....cut off the hand thats picking your pocket, not the one trying to distract you.



[edit on 24-2-2005 by CazMedia]

Originally posted by CazMedia

If so, then why waste time pointing AWAY from the people MOST accountable for this situation?
Why are we not pointing it directly at where the problem lies instead of trying to use this to support a partizan position?

Quite simple Caz. The opinion is divided about just who, if anybody, is guilty. One side blames the administration, and the other side blames the first side.

The fact is, we can ALL see that something IS happenning. Though we may not be in agreement about who is responsible, We all see an ongoing problem arising within our way of life. The question is; what can we do about it?

[edit on 2/24/05 by Kidfinger]

Caz and Kidfinger - IMO, Bush is the Executive in Charge - the buck stops with him. The problems are endemic - and he's responsible.

Shifting the blame onto employees who just take orders is just cowardly scapegoating.


.

Originally posted by soficrow
Caz and Kidfinger - IMO, Bush is the Executive in Charge - the buck stops with him. The problems are endemic - and he's responsible.

Sofi,

I completly agree Im just trying to be less opinionated and let the facts speak for themselves

Sofi says,

Bush is the Executive in Charge - the buck stops with him. The problems are endemic - and he's responsible. Shifting the blame onto employees who just take orders is just cowardly scapegoating.

Please show me the "orders from Bush" that you say employees were following which led them to violate the law....They are VERY culpable for their actions...I was just following orders is NO excuse!

And trying to lay the blame further uphill where youd like to find it but have no evidence to support it is false justice if you ask me. If you are NOT willing to go to those most directly accountable for this then how do you think you can get the executive in charge if you cant bag the guilty? I see, guilt by association eh? Not very legal of you.

Again this is a weak defense that tries to aviod the real accountabillity and attempts to pass the buck to the intended target. Its a diversion meant to prop up misdirected accountabillity.

The facts HAVE spoken for themselves, ive shown you where the article assigns the blame, and established who heads that office, and even how they outsource video productions to outside contractors....ive shows any # of people in this chain of command that would have a much more culpabillity than Bush, yet the defense of Bush's guilt is he's the ceo and deserves to be wacked because of the mistakes of his underlings eh?
a very klingon attitude you express.

The only other FACT i see here is many of you are ignoring assigning blame and acting against the people that are most acountable, in some kind of zeal to"get Bush".

Originally posted by CazMedia

The only other FACT i see here is many of you are ignoring assigning blame and acting against the people that are most acountable, in some kind of zeal to"get Bush".

I see the denial and subsequent scapegoating in "propagandagate" as parallel to the ongoing torture scandal. ...The actions at the bottom result from policy directives handed down from the top.

...IMO - It's not fair to hold 'grunts' accountable and let the big guys go free.



.

Sofi levels a charge,

The actions at the bottom result from policy directives handed down from the top.

Please show for the record where the "policy dirtectives" from Bush to the office and director in question, specifically authorize or dictate violations of the law.

Sofi says,

It's not fair to hold 'grunts' accountable and let the big guys go free.

I totally agree, yet i must ask for objectivity as well as accountabillity. the big guys deserve to be held accountable...BUT this in NO WAY alleviates the "grunts" from the responsabillity they had in the issues.

Its very alltruistic to say "the boss in charge is accountable for the actions of his employees", yet this seems to only be being done here to "get Bush" while absolving those most accountable.
If you want to get Bush, start taking his toys away, bust those that ARE found in violation for allegedly doing his bidding. Hold THOSE people accountable and less people will be willing to commit the violations you claim come directly from Bush.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Sofi levels a charge,

The actions at the bottom result from policy directives handed down from the top.

Please show for the record where the "policy dirtectives" from Bush to the office and director in question, specifically authorize or dictate violations of the law.

Here's one:

CIA prisoners 'tortured' in Arab jails

A former CIA official has confirmed suspicions that dozens of terror suspects have been flown to jails in Middle Eastern countries where torture is routinely practised, and without reference to courts of law.

Michael Scheuer, who once headed the hunt for Osama Bin Laden and left the CIA last November after a 22-year career, said the practice, known as "extraordinary rendition", was seen by the US as a key tactic in its war on terror.

Mr Scheuer said the operation was authorised at the highest levels of the CIA and the White House and was approved by their lawyers.

He added: "The idea that this is a rogue operation that someone has dreamt up is just absurd. I personally have no problem with doing any operation as long as it's justified legal by my superiors."

Also see:

New Allegations of US Torture

Sofi says,

It's not fair to hold 'grunts' accountable and let the big guys go free.

I totally agree, yet i must ask for objectivity as well as accountabillity. the big guys deserve to be held accountable...BUT this in NO WAY alleviates the "grunts" from the responsabillity they had in the issues.

Its very alltruistic to say "the boss in charge is accountable for the actions of his employees", yet this seems to only be being done here to "get Bush" while absolving those most accountable.
If you want to get Bush, start taking his toys away, bust those that ARE found in violation for allegedly doing his bidding. Hold THOSE people accountable and less people will be willing to commit the violations you claim come directly from Bush.

Standard corporate strategy - use employees as a shield to protect management. IMO - the only way to clean everything up is to go after upper level management. Stop it where it starts.

Like maybe reopen the Nuremburg trials. (Same issues and questions. Ie., Culpability of foot soldiers versus that of officers.)



.

Sofi,
im glad you took time to provide some additional info that i requested...
BUT
WHAT RELAVENCE do these things have to your allegation that Bush ordered the Office of National Drug Control Policy to create and run an ad that was in violation of federal guidlines?
I asked for more DIRECT info relating to your contention, and you again try and use a side track reason to support it?

Sofi says,

Standard corporate strategy - use employees as a shield to protect management. IMO - the only way to clean everything up is to go after upper level management. Stop it where it starts.

Sofi, im all for cleaning house as far as EVIDENCE supports it, but find your focused zeal limiting.
You are trying to say that because of unrelated examples of the idea of "policy violations" occuring there, means it is happening in this other agency too. This is a logical fallicy to start with...its assumptive, and again reveals that your point is based on a "get bush" mentality where the actual evidence is being ASSUMED by you.

Did you provide something that said Bush told the drug czar to violate fed policy with the ad?
NO, when questioned about your baseless allegation you come back with unrelated examples where you then allege, similar must also be occuring in this case. How much assumption do you use to determine reality?

I totally agree that they COULD occur as you allege, but also that saying this like it is a fact seems like only partizan emotive spewing.
There are no facts supporting your contention,
therefore i say to you, your energy would be better served busting those that CAN be implicated by the evidence.

I also agree with you that those that lead should expect to be questioned about their leadership,
BUT
i dont support a witch hunt based on trumped up, indirect or lacking evidence in order to stick it to someone.

Originally posted by CazMedia

i dont support a witch hunt based on trumped up, indirect or lacking evidence in order to stick it to someone.

You need to take that up with the Government Accountability Office (GAO).


www.gao.gov...


.

...and oh yeah....


GO TEAM!

Don't be distracted.

Don't be diverted.

Don't let ANYONE jerk your chain.

Deny Ignorance. Find the truth. Lift the stones. Peek around corners. Break taboos. Think outside the box. Embrace cliches and stick your tongue in their ears.


The Internet RULES.







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