World’s top industries wouldn't be profitable at all if they paid for natural capital they use

The human costs are gigantic too. All the forced labor, health and psychological problems not to mention business scams that the people are screwed over with.

a reply to: CB328

All the forced labor

Where?

health and psychological problems not to mention business scams that the people are screwed over with.

Scams aren't business, scams are crimes.

a reply to: projectvxn

Like the scam that cigarette company's pulled off for a while. Or, the one where company's pushed against saturated fats as 'bad' and stuffed people full of sugar filled food?

Socialism is the answer?
In some ways in a perfect world full of perfect people I would tend to agree.


But please Mr socialist, explain to me how will our socialist utopia guarantee that the chosen few who have acquired the position of power to dictate to the rest of us what we can have, and what we can have not: won't abuse us.

It's happened. Every. Single. Time it's been tried.

Socialism equals misery for the masses. And opulence for the elite.

Every. Single. Time.

Please, I'm absolutely begging you here.

Tell me!!!! How can socialism benefit us in any way in the long run when the same greed that ruins capitalism gets complete unrestricted control to totally ruin our lives????

Tell me CB. I'm freaking begging you

explain to me how will our socialist utopia guarantee that the chosen few who have acquired the position of power to dictate to the rest of us what we can have, and what we can have not: won't abuse us.

They're elected, just like the politicians here. Seriously, do you people know nothing about the planet you live on? Europe is soclialist and it's nothing like what you claim socialism is.

originally posted by: CB328

explain to me how will our socialist utopia guarantee that the chosen few who have acquired the position of power to dictate to the rest of us what we can have, and what we can have not: won't abuse us.

They're elected, just like the politicians here. Seriously, do you people know nothing about the planet you live on? Europe is soclialist and it's nothing like what you claim socialism is.

Actually, Europe has been trending away from socialism for some time now.

Because they found out it didn't work.

But hey! Let's try again!!!

/facepalm

originally posted by: CB328

explain to me how will our socialist utopia guarantee that the chosen few who have acquired the position of power to dictate to the rest of us what we can have, and what we can have not: won't abuse us.

They're elected, just like the politicians here. Seriously, do you people know nothing about the planet you live on? Europe is soclialist and it's nothing like what you claim socialism is.

Europe is socialist? To what level? Have they gotten rid of capatilism there?
Explain please. I'm just a dumb land locked American know nothing, I'm unaware of the amazing potential of socialism.

Please. Explain how it will benefit me. And my family. And my country.

You've openly declared now CB that you firmly believe socialism is the answer.

So lay it out for us. Hell start a new thread if you have to. Tell me, tell us all how socialism will fix our woes.

Be sure to include the issues of funding. Motivating the work force, limiting the power of the governing body to destroy lives if it's will is not met.
Everything. I'm all ears man, it sounds great. Convince me.

a reply to: CB328

When a government spends it is usually over pays and under performs. Cant get away from the corruption in the bidding process to start with

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: FyreByrd

That argument is ridiculous.

You're now coming up with unquantifiable "costs" that somehow magically outweigh whatever payroll and taxes a business generates for the community.

It’s not always unquantifiable. Some companies have literally been caught dumping toxic chemicals, and there is an estimated cost of clean up. Sometimes it’s not easily assessed but there is zero doubt that they destroyed some kind of commons. You have to understand that a company destroying or harming property or the health of others or society are not practicing freedom nor good business, they are transgressing the rights of others. There is nothing good about that.

originally posted by: projectvxn
There's this thing called "property rights". Commies don't know much about that, except when they are taking it from someone else.

"natural capital"

Another BS term for imposing another BS tax.

Externalization has nothing to do with 'property rights'.

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: FyreByrd

That argument is ridiculous.

You're now coming up with unquantifiable "costs" that somehow magically outweigh whatever payroll and taxes a business generates for the community.

These 'costs' are quantifiable.

Air pollution is quantifiable in health costs, productive days lost, damage to crops and many other quantifiable measures.

Here's the report - they detail their methodology and data gathering - like serious people do:

naturalcapitalcoalition.org...

These are very real costs that We the People around the world subsidize for Big Business by taxes, lost quality of life, in sickness. Take Asthma - a direct result of air pollution - how much does that cost us each year in health costs. How much does it cost families with an Asthmatic or two ?

No Sir, your rebuttal is without any reasonable merit.

originally posted by: caterpillage
Socialism is the answer?
In some ways in a perfect world full of perfect people I would tend to agree.


But please Mr socialist, explain to me how will our socialist utopia guarantee that the chosen few who have acquired the position of power to dictate to the rest of us what we can have, and what we can have not: won't abuse us.

It's happened. Every. Single. Time it's been tried.

Socialism equals misery for the masses. And opulence for the elite.

Every. Single. Time.

Please, I'm absolutely begging you here.

Tell me!!!! How can socialism benefit us in any way in the long run when the same greed that ruins capitalism gets complete unrestricted control to totally ruin our lives????

Tell me CB. I'm freaking begging you

Your abosolute and hyperbolic response is one of absolute poverty of thought.

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: CB328

explain to me how will our socialist utopia guarantee that the chosen few who have acquired the position of power to dictate to the rest of us what we can have, and what we can have not: won't abuse us.

They're elected, just like the politicians here. Seriously, do you people know nothing about the planet you live on? Europe is soclialist and it's nothing like what you claim socialism is.

Actually, Europe has been trending away from socialism for some time now.

Because they found out it didn't work.

But hey! Let's try again!!!

/facepalm

Europe is a mixed economy - with both socialist and capitalistic aspects.

It is not trending away from socialism it's trending towards xenophobia and authoritarianism. And none of those 'actors' would consider taking away the social programs from their people only those who they define as 'the other'.

So you've got it wrong on several counts.

originally posted by: caterpillage
You've openly declared now CB that you firmly believe socialism is the answer.

So lay it out for us. Hell start a new thread if you have to. Tell me, tell us all how socialism will fix our woes.

Be sure to include the issues of funding. Motivating the work force, limiting the power of the governing body to destroy lives if it's will is not met.
Everything. I'm all ears man, it sounds great. Convince me.

This OP isn't about socialism and you/others have deflected on to that subject due to any real understanding of the issue of externalized costs to the body politic.

If you have nothing to say on the subject other than 'rote memes' from whereever, just don't. You appear disorganized at best and a sycophant at worst.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Here from the report about how they 'valued' the externalities:

Trucost assessed more than 100 direct environmental impacts (see Appendix 4) and condensed them into six EKPIs

to cover the major categories of unpriced natural capital consumption: water use, greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, waste, air pollution, land and water pollution, and land use.

These EKPIs are estimated by region across the primary production and primary processing sectors(see Appendix 3).

How these impacts are embedded in the products of downstream sectors was estimated using Trucost’s EEIO (see Appendix 2).

Double counting of impacts was limited by differentiating between the consumption of ecosystem services (land and water use), and pollution impacts on the supply of these ecosystem services and

human health (GHGs and other pollutants). The magnitude of each impact per unit of revenue varies by region due to factors such as differences in production intensity and resource efficiency.

naturalcapitalcoalition.org...

a reply to: CB328

You don't have to be a socialist to address this problem. In fact, I fully support the idea of making business account for the means of their production.

However, therein lies the real rub. Which externalities are real?

Clean water and clean air are relatively easy to determine. But the greenhouse gas issue is an entirely different beast of another color based upon a massive set of assumptions that are still not well settled. (Spare me the outrage. I'm not interested in making this thread a global warming debate.)

Remove the greenhouse gas valuation provided in the study and the entire conclusion of the study falls apart.

Moreover, what does socialism have to do with any of this? Other than the fact that NOT making business pay for the means of their production is in fact a form of socialism all by itself.

As with all things, the devil is in the details.

Frankly the OP is bunk. It takes a sound concept and distorts it into something that isn't remotely real by stuffing it with poor or unreasonably defined 'externalities'.

Fix that and you might have something more people could support.

a reply to: Lumenari

Communism is not socialism you know this right?

And pretty much the rest of the world has adopted socialist platforms and integrated it successfully. Only the US and a few dictatorships around the world have no done so. But hell, even the states allows Unions.

You are also looking at it from a view point of the Communist Manifesto where violence was called for and taken far to literal by a bunch of dictators.

a reply to: CB328

Capitalism isnt billion dollar stadiums. Its "capitalizing" on the conditions extant.

Change the rules and it changes how people capialize on the environment they act within.

I find it interesting that no one in this thread has come up with a rebuttal to the OP, but have instead, collectively decided to engage in deflection, misdirection and misinformation.

NEOCLASSICAL ECONOMICS DESTROYS LIVES! STOP ENGAGING IN IT AND ACCEPTING IT!

Do carry on though, the mental and linguistic gymnastics on display are positively Olympian.