some chemtrail pictures from today in upstate NY

For those of you who do believe in "chemtrails", I respect your opinion on the subject. However, its not something that I believe in at this time. So if I disagree with you, don't take it personally. This should be about a nice debate. Not name calling.


Im gonna throw in my 2 cents. Im not very informed on this particular subject but im gonna ask some questions. Forgive me if some have already been asked.

1. Could these trails be created from a new series of jet engine and not from some sinister aerosol?

2. What is the motivation behind their actions? Why would someone do this?

Perhaps they're slowy making the American people sick so that they can buy up perscription drugs and make drug companies rich? I don't know. Im just adding fuel to the fire.

Sry OTS but your arguments have very little validity either, you haven't offered any comments on the documentary dh posted other than the usual, "this can't be true 'cause I say so"...LOL

Watch the documentary and you'll see a pilot talking about chemtrails, but of course no pilots have ever claimed that the chemtrail conspiracy is true right?

[edit on 27/2/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by _Anubis_
1. Could these trails be created from a new series of jet engine and not from some sinister aerosol?

2. What is the motivation behind their actions? Why would someone do this?

1. No. Contrails are formed when hot engine gasses hit cold air, kinda like your breath on a cold day. The "type" of jet engine makes no difference.

2. Weather control. Watch the video's posted on this thread;

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

[edit on 27/2/2005 by ANOK]

Seems like a set of perfectly normal contrails to me Nothing special with the behavior of that H20

Originally posted by ANOK

1. No. Contrails are formed when hot engine gasses hit cold air, kinda like your breath on a cold day. The "type" of jet engine makes no difference.

Actually it has a whole lot to do with it. You see, the more effecient an engine is, the more water it produces per pound of thrust as opposed to partially burnt fuel vapors per poound of thrust.

The high bypass engines are very fuel effeicent, therefore they tend to produce more water vapor per mile of flight than the old style turbojets.

I just watched the documentary and I want my hour and a half back...

ANOK says:

"Sry OTS but your arguments have very little validity either, you haven't offered any comments on the documentary dh posted other than the usual, "this can't be true 'cause I say so"...LOL."

Actually, I didn't post any comments at all, because it took me a couple of days to actually sit therough the thing and watch it.

First, the graphics capability was pretty good. Clowney obviously had a person who knew how to make a pretty program, including the music which crashed into dissonance whenever a "chem-trail" appeared, especially at the beginning of the show.

Second, the entire thing seemed pretty lean of content. Clowney's "pilot" is never shown or identified, which means he could be anyone you want him to be.

Clowney never addressed the biggest critique of his "barium" theory, which is that barium compounds are extremely common and plentiful components of coal-fired electrical generating plants all over the country.

He never mentioned that if there were traces of aluminum in the "chem-trails" as so many "chem-trail" devotees say, these would have stuck out like sore thumbs in all the doppler radar pictures we see floating around the Internet -- and none of them do, of course.

Clowney never went into any detail about the laboratories that were supposed to have actually tested his stuff, such as their name, addresss, researcher, printed reports, contacts, etc.

He never once attempted to defend all the critiques of the infamous "Therese Aigner" research, which was blown out of the water within a week of its posting as the "real, honest-to-god proof", etc.

As a matter of fact, almost everything you saw on the video are just pictures of contrails, discussions about people who "prefer not to be named", and creepy music.

Now, if the video had actually answered questions like
(1) what studies were done on "chem-trails" collected in situ, or
(2) what labs were used in his testing program, or
(3) a description and rationale for Clowney's microscopy of erythrocytes and what they could possibly have to do with "chem-trails", or
(4) an interview of a real government person, with his or ner name available, or
(5) a correlation between contrails and hospital admissions, or
(6) any discussion by people about the correlation betweer HAARP and Barium and VTRPE technology and "chem-trails" .....

..But he never does. Clowney never really says anything in his video that you can hang your hat on.

No evidence.

No coherent studies.

No lab tests.

No chain of possession.

Nothing.

Now, ANOK, can you come up with any particular part of the video where you can say: "Yes! There's evidence!! There's a lab report! There's proof! ... can you?

I can't, either!

It reminds me of those "mysteries of the unknown" things on tv where you start hoping they'll actually show you the strange critter, but they never do.

Or, better yet, like Geraldo Rivera's famous "nothing-program" about Al Capone's secret treasure room.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by ANOK

1. No. Contrails are formed when hot engine gasses hit cold air, kinda like your breath on a cold day. The "type" of jet engine makes no difference.

Actually it has a whole lot to do with it. You see, the more effecient an engine is, the more water it produces per pound of thrust as opposed to partially burnt fuel vapors per poound of thrust.

The high bypass engines are very fuel effeicent, therefore they tend to produce more water vapor per mile of flight than the old style turbojets.

The type of engine has nothing to do with how long a contrail lasts. Are you forgetting your own arguments now lol? Once a contrail is formed it's the atmosphere that controls the trail not the engine.
You are right a bigger contrail may be formed but size here is not the argument, it's how long they persist once they are formed.
Chem trails last all day BTW, contrails don't.

Originally posted by ANOK
Once a contrail is formed it's the atmosphere that controls the trail not the engine.

Wow, you finally learned something. I have some hope for you after all

You are right a bigger contrail may be formed but size here is not the argument, it's how long they persist once they are formed.
Chem trails last all day BTW, contrails don't.

Ok, so do you agree with the fact that contrails are composed of water (or more accurately ice crystals)?


Do you agree that normal everyday clouds can form at the same altitude as contrails? (i.e cirrus clouds, which have been documented since before the age of aviation)


Do you also agree that ordinary cirrus clouds can last "all day?"


So why, if a contrail is made of the same thing as a cloud, can't it behave the same as a cloud? Why can't a contrail "last all day?"



[edit on 27-2-2005 by HowardRoark]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Originally posted by ANOK
Once a contrail is formed it's the atmosphere that controls the trail not the engine.

Wow, you finally learned something. I have some hope for you after all

Learned something? I new that all along. That's how I know the difference between a quickly dissipating CONtrail and a CHEMtrail that lasts for hours and does not dissipate.

And BTW contrails form in a similar way your breath forms on a cold day, does your breath form a cloud and last all day? Of course not.
Contrails don't last for more than a couple of minutes because it is a reaction of hot gasses in cold air. Clouds form from evaporated water, that's why they last. It's a totally different process.

Here is a site that will explain cloud formation for you, I hope it's simple enough;

www.ucar.edu...

[edit on 27/2/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by ANOK

And BTW contrails form in a similar way your breath forms on a cold day, does your breath form a cloud and last all day?
[edit on 27/2/2005 by ANOK]

Duh. Are you doing your breathing at 30,000 ft in -40oC conditions? Are you breathing out thousands of litres of air every minute? Crap analogy.

Originally posted by sensfan
Nice pics pf CONtrails. Chemtrails are a myth that don't exist in my opinion.

I'm sorry my friend but you must be stupid. Chemtrails happen everyday but people like you do not notice. I was watching the sky EARLY this morning 28-2-2005, 0700 - 0900, South-east england and there were "CHEMtrails" WITHOUT doubt I believe I saw chemtrails as there were planes at a higher altititude that were leaving a "CONtrail" and that trail dissipated within TEN minutes. So I suppose you don't believe in NWO either even though Bush senior had 15 glocks made that said "New World Order/Commemorative". In know way I am implying that a NWO exists but why have a glock made that has NWO commemorative on it???? Still believe "CHEMtrails" are a myth. I'm sure you could find a few million that disagree with you.

Have a nice life, Living in ignorance.

You've got your answer right there

EARLY this morning 28-2-2005, 0700 - 0900, South-east england and there were "CHEMtrails" WITHOUT doubt I believe I saw chemtrails as there were planes at a higher altititude that were leaving a "CONtrail" and that trail dissipated within TEN minutes

Different altitudes mean different atmospheric conditions, therefore different traits in the contrails from the planes.

Originally posted by sensfan
You've got your answer right there

EARLY this morning 28-2-2005, 0700 - 0900, South-east england and there were "CHEMtrails" WITHOUT doubt I believe I saw chemtrails as there were planes at a higher altititude that were leaving a "CONtrail" and that trail dissipated within TEN minutes

Different altitudes mean different atmospheric conditions, therefore different traits in the contrails from the planes.

YOUR IGNORANT! You had better start denying it. How come you get "CHEMtrails" at all heights, conditions and "CONtrails" are 25,000ft+ you would be lucky to see an authentic "CONtrail" last more than 20 mins these "CHEMtrails" I saw this morning (0700) and were still there nearly 3 hourly's later, explain that Sherlock!

First of all, I take offence to being called ignorant. Then again, if ignorance is to do research into a topic, gather info, and base my conclusions on facts, then I guess I am ignorant. As for being called Sherlock, thanks, I take that as a compliment :-) Now, on to your post...

Are you trying to claim that atmospheric conditions are the same no matter what altitude you are at? If so, then you are highly mistaken. I suggest you take a look at the website and small portion of info I am posting below. It will explain how contrails form, why they form, why some last a long time and some disipate quickly, etc. Very good read...

cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...

Contrails form when hot humid air from jet exhaust mixes with environmental air of low vapor pressure and low temperature. The mixing is a result of turbulence generated by the engine exhaust. Cloud formation by a mixing process is similar to the cloud you see when you exhale and "see your breath". The figure below represents how saturation vapor pressure varies as a function of temperature. The blue line is the saturation vapor pressure for ice as a function of temperature (in degrees Kelvin). Air parcels in the region labeled saturated will form a cloud. Imagine two parcels of air, A and B as located on the diagram. Both parcels are unsaturated. If B represents the engine exhaust, then as it mixes with the environment (parcel A) its temperature and corresponding vapor pressure will follow the dotted line. Where this dotted line intersects the blue line is were the parcel becomes saturated.





If you are attentive to contrail formation and duration, you will notice that they can rapidly dissipate or spread horizontally into an extensive thin cirrus layer. How long a contrail remains intact, depends on the humidity structure and winds of the upper troposphere. If the atmosphere is near saturation, the contrail may exist for sometime. On the other hand, if the atmosphere is dry then as the contrail mixes with the environment it dissipates. Contrails are a concern in climate studies as increased jet aircraft traffic may result in an increase in cloud cover. It has been estimated that in certain heavy air-traffic corridors, cloud cover has increased by as much as 20%

I'm just sitting here wonder where they were taken at.....
there's one picture that kind of looks like the one's my husband pointed out to me the other day.......

sorry, I really don't get into the chem trails thing....
they look the same to me today, as they did years ago, when I was little and liked to watch them.

Originally posted by ANOK

Contrails don't last for more than a couple of minutes because it is a reaction of hot gasses in cold air. Clouds form from evaporated water, that's why they last. It's a totally different process.
[edit on 27/2/2005 by ANOK]

And what exactly do you think it is in the “Hot Exhaust Gasses” that forms the contrail in the first place? Frozen CO2? No it is water vapor. When you burn fuel in air you get two main combustion products, CO2 and H2O. Those are the gasses you are talking about.

Please explain how the water vapor produced by a jet engine is different from the water vapor that produces clouds?

How are the processes of condensation (or ice crystal formation) for the two sources of water vapor different?

Why would the water vapor molecules produced by the combustion of jet fuel act any differently from the water vapor molecules that evaporated from a pond?

Do you know what this kind of contrail is called?

Can you explain how the processes that produced that contrail are different from the processes that produce a contrail from engine exhaust, and how they are similar?

(Yeah, I know that sounds like a question on a science class test. )

Well, ANOK, I haven't seen any responses from you of my critique of Carniecon's video.

Did I miss anything? Did Carniecon actually speak to some of the questions I raised -- or didn't he?

military sprayers from a military website

now, please continue arguing how ridiculous my assertion about the possibility of the realisation of spraying equipment patents and programs.

i love this discalimer at the bottom of the page,

Photographs which show military aircraft with sprays coming from unusual locations on the aircraft are usually re-touched photos (a process that is easy to create using common computer programs).

haha! we're all just photoshop whizzes with nothing better to do than create a massive hoax to make the military look like they have a secret program?! everyone knows the military would never be involved in a secret program. it's the hundred photoshop monkeys theory.
hey, at least they said 'USUALLY'.