Evidence for the Co-Existence of Humans and Dinosaurs

So it's the greatest discovery we've ever made, in human history.

They suggest thousands of unknown species have been discovered, to have once existed on Earth, nobody knew existed before now....or they never once mentioned it, anyway!

Maybe they discovered it, many times, only never spoken of - it was quite common, back in those days, to keep secrets!!

There is nothing to prove it, or even show it's a plausible argument, but so what?

After it is assumed that nobody has found, or mentioned it was found, anyway.....for many thousands of years, earlier, we then discovered it in the 1800's, and have made many more discoveries, since then....

When thousands of years pass without discovering a species unknown to exist, the odds of finding one such species would be thousands to one, at least....

What about the odds of finding a second species, a few years later? And finding more, and more, all over the world?

Laughable.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: turbonium1


You believe that dinosaur bones were probably found long before the late 1800's?

Nobody knew what the bones, and didn't care about it, anyway. They never showed anyone the bones, or mentioned it, either. All the people who discovered dinosaur bones did the same thing, for thousands of years...until the late 1800's, when they told the world about it?!?

Finding a massive skull, with 8-foot long teeth, happened many times over the centuries, but they didn't know what it was, so they left it there, and never mentioned it afterwards!


Are you serious?

You must try to understand that people were massively supersitious.

The bones wouldn't merit a mention because they already believed even more extravagant stories anyway. If the knew little about taxonomy they would assume the bones came from giant humans. If they knew a lot, they would recognize the bird/lizard qualities.


It's in the modern world that we are amazed when we find large bones.

More likely, the reason nobody mentioned dinosaur bones is .....nobody had ever 'discovered' dinosaur bones....until the late 1800's .

When you consider just how many sites around the world there are where they've been discovered by accident, what is the probability that a thousand years would pass and nobody finds even one bone by accident?

Suppose a poor farmer of the day had found a T-Rex skull in his field. When the word gets out, his land is suddenly worth a small fortune. Life-changing.

He would probably sell the skull, not the land it was found on.

It wasn't until modern times that we began to realize the bones are usually found together in the same area. He'd just think he was lucky that one "dragon" had happened to die on his lot so long ago.

It would be highly unlikely for even ONE of the discoveries to remain unknown, let alone each and every one of the discoveries, over thousands of years, over the entire world!!

In ancient civilizations, they searched for bones of a unicorn, or a dragon, or a winged horse...They dug for unicorn horns in the ground, as we have dug for dino-bones. They dug for gold, for buried treasure, for water, and many other things, over thousands of years. Digging deep into the ground didn't start in the 1800's, and discoveries within the ground didn't start in the 1800's. Nor were 'unknown' discoveries seen as worthless, or even mention, before the 1800's.

Right, but they thought the bones were from more recent deaths.

As such, they would not think of it like gold, where if you find one nugget there are likely to be more nearby.

They would just think "cool! one dragon happened to meet it's end here!"

And you are correct that dinosaur/dragon bones did sell for a high price in China. They would be ground up and added to elixirs and sold to people who believed drinking it would do some kind of magic.

Do you see why there is something very odd about this?

Yes. I think it is odd that you're not adding context. If you want to step into the shoes of an ancient person and try to imagine how they would think, you need to be wearing both shoes.

'We didn't know what was in the ground, or why we wanted to dig into the ground, or why we decided to dig into ground at that particular area.'

Maybe because digging is hard work? Especially with no automated digging machines.

'It was lucky that we found the first ever dinosaur bones at that spot. Someone had spent a lot of money on this expedition, to dig into the ground at that spot, for a long time.'

This was a 'discovery' which never happened for thousands of years, until they funded an expedition, for some reason, to dig deep into ground, for some reason, at a specific area, for some reason, where they found the first dinosaur bones, which nobody knew even existed.

After they knew dinosaurs existed, it was easy to find a lot of dinosaur bones, everywhere else. Finding the first dinosaur took thousands of years, but after that, you'll start finding dinosaurs all over the world, and within a few years, you'll 'discover' many types of dinosaurs....no problem!

That's when dinosaurs were understood as 'fossil fuel'. Dinosaur remains created all the world's oil. And why we refer to oil as fossil fuels - to this very day!

Standard Oil knew dinosaurs made oil, right after the discovery of many dinosaurs. Good thing they found dinosaurs everywhere, just before oil became the key to modern society!

I think what made that happen is that the world had stopped believing in "dragons". And then found conclusive proof for something like a dragon.

Of course it wasn't exactly like the myth, and didn't live alongside mankind. But it still sparks childrens' imaginations to this day.

Gold was found thousands of years ago, unlike 'dino-bones'...

Most of Earth's minerals were also found thousands of years ago, as well.

Except they never found a dinosaur bone, until the miracle of all time happened, and then, dinosaurs were 'discovered' all over the Earth. These dinosaurs had once ruled over the entire Earth, for millions of years, until all of them.... suddenly died.

Who would dig into the ground, at a specific area, for no reason at all?

Are you serious?

The Brachiosaurus was also written about. The writer of the book of Job clearly describes the attributes of a brachiosaurus and calls it ‘Behemoth’ (or ‘Bahamut’ for FF7 fans), a chief of the creations of God

Bahamut is actually Engrish for Baphomet but I digress.

Pretty fascinating read.

a reply to: TheBloodRed

Fascinating but utter bull#*** unfortunately...

Behemoth was a hippo.

I know that some people want to angrily dispute this and everything but really what is more likely between the following two scenarios?

1. Behemoth was a hippo: Now on the side of this being the actual truth we have the following.
A: The Bible was written by authors in the middle East and subsaharan Africa region where hippos are known to live.


B: River hippos are by far the single most deadly and dangerous animals in the region and the whole CONTINENT OF AFRICA even now. They kill far more people and destroy more property every year than any other wildlife on the continent. (Fun fact, in the Continental United States the humble deer is the deadliest and most financially costly as determined by insurance claim and payout dollar amounts year on year wild animal) Hippos are known for attacking and destroying even fairly decent sized boats going for/killing the crew members and passengers once they hit the water. This said though, they are extremely dangerous on land too.


C: Since we know the general region where the Bible was written in it can be logically deduced that a comparison of an animals traits/anatomy with a tree like the cedar tree is going to be a comparison of a strain/species of said tree that actually exists locally. That makes it very likely that "job" was thinking of something close or identical to the Lebanese Cedar tree. (Hey bonus we actually know that the Lebanese Cedar looks pretty much the same now as back then because 3000+ year old Lebanese cedars have been found to be pretty near identical to modern ones!) Lebanese Cedars are known to sway in the breeze and etc in a manner which happens to be quite similar to the way hippo tails sway and etc.(AFAIK though they don't do that hippopotamus poo propeller thing you can see on YouTube)


D: There is no diplomatic way to say this so I'll just say it. If you did a police line up of a bunch of animal "packages" and have people try to "identify the package in question" as described in the book of Job... The hippo would be picked as the possessor of the package in question.

E: Beyond their aggressiveness hippies are also well known for making any number of freaky and distressing vocalizations that even today get described as primeval and terrifying.

F: At the time the Bible was written etc boats were mostly wood Reed and etc construction as were houses, fences, and et cetera. From point B we know that even today hippos etc are extremely deadly and destructive in certain circumstances. What you may not know though is that tourist resorts etc which are sited in hippo country and close to the water often sport cement hippo ditches with razor wire and etc festooned fences, and AK-47 armed guards who walk the grounds at night etc for guest safety. And the locals... They basically give certain areas near the water etc to the hippos between dusk and dawn! So if hippos today are a level of deadly and dangerous that warrants such extreme responses, can you imagine what sort of hell beast such an animal would seem to be back then!!

G: There's a few other things I could list which support the hippo hypothesis, but I feel like I have made my point


Or we can try and construct a similar array of supporting facts evidence and etc for the dinosaur...

Realistically the dinosaur hypothesis only even manages to appear to be a compelling alternative explanation if the person trying to sell it is either a liar or too ignorant to realize he's pitching a pack of lies at you.

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: TheBloodRed

A: The Bible was written by authors in the middle East and subsaharan Africa region where hippos are known to live.

According to the Mesopotamian cylinder seal, and various Egyptian tablets, Brachiosaurus-like creatures were also present in the region. They've uncovered titanosaur (brachiosaurus-like dinosaur) remains in the region (source).

B: River hippos are by far the single most deadly and dangerous animals in the region and the whole CONTINENT OF AFRICA even now.

From what I read, this is your main argument. But the Job account does not say that it was a deadly creature. It even goes so far as to say that it co-mingled with the beasts of the field (Job 40:20). It says behemoth was chief in the ways of God... A description that insists on the largest animal in human history, that was also an herbivore. Job also mentions that Its food comes from the mountains (Job 40:20) - hippos generally don't stray that far from water. It also says that it hid under willow trees - one of the few trees with long curtain-like branches that could effectively hide a brachiosaurus. So your entire post does not actually give any credibility to the argument that behemoth was a hippo.

Realistically the dinosaur hypothesis only even manages to appear to be a compelling alternative explanation if the person trying to sell it is either a liar or too ignorant to realize he's pitching a pack of lies at you.

From the insufficient supporting evidence for your claims, it is apparent you are grasping at straws to maintain an old erroneous dogma that was never really founded in any substantial empirical data. Personal attacks are a hallmark of not having any real counter-evidence to present. C-14 data, along with historical observations, insist on a much more recent date for dinosaurs.

a reply to: cooperton

The C-14 "data" that's entirely erroneous because it's a bunch of religitarded s***Lords playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes... Glad to see that you're still going to try and hang your hat on that as well as god only knows which of the how many "translations" and "versions" of "The Bible"?

Cool cool... Go with that rather than solid stuff which can actually be backed up at least somewhat successfully by "a book" which is in reality lots of different loosely translated anthologies of the greatest theological hits of a relatively insignificant tiny pocket of ignorant and illiterate herders / desert dweller's religious writings!

See this is where you get me all wrong even though I've made it abundantly and even aggressively clear where I stand on the issues here.

I'm not a believer, and I'm not even close to convinced that human history is necessarily what the prevailing narrative says it is! And I trust modern science up to a point,. but am very keenly aware of how easy it is for both woo peddlers (that would be you) and "the establishment" (modern academia) to twist it to their own ends!

Like you are trying to do in this thread in general and very specifically in reference to my last post as well!

It's only an ad hominem atrack if it's an assertion with no basis in reality and or if it's somehow tangential or unrelated to the subject at hand. (Since you ALSO seem to be unclear on where the line between fallacy and justifiable criticism based upon the actual subject at hand and the Author's presentation and treatment of it actually sits... I figured I'd point it out for you)

In other words, I can call you an intellectually dishonest agenda pushing woo peddler here because that is in fact exactly what you are doing.

That's me not letting a dishonest presenter game the rules of etiquette and reasoned discussion to quash rightful dissent, not a fallacy in action.

See how that works?!

The difference between you and I is that I am choosing to support my position with the absolute best and most reliable of information that there is to work with out of the verses in question backed up by contextual information which can be verified to be extremely likely or even outright CONFIRMED to hold up to historical conditions in the area at the time.

You... You brought up the mingling with the beasts of the field thing ... Kindly show me where exactly I asserted in any way that Hippos are dangerous to things like livestock in my post please?

Oh... I didn't say that at all? Imagine that!
(Hint: many animals have very adverse reactions to humans and other apex predators that they don't have with animals they don't see as threats! But then again I know that because I looked it up BEFORE I wrote my last response which was already going to be very long anyway. This is probably why I very specifically at the end of my breakdown of scenario 1 aka the behemoth is a hippo hypothesis said I COULD KEEP GOING BUT YOU GET THE POINT!)

But, thank you for presenting yet another point in favor of the hippo hypothesis! (Spoiler alert: You did this SEVERAL TIMES in your post, but I'm only going to include one other because this post is already pretty long.)

You also brought up willow trees (maybe because you're a secret masochist maybe?)

Where are willow trees quite often, dare I say even predominantly found again?

By river banks, in wetlands, and et cetera you say?!

SHOCKING!

(Hint: Your willow argument is about an order of magnitude WORSE than your cedar argument and we all know exactly how well that one flies to anyone whose even DIMLY aware of middle Eastern plant life goes)

I have an answer for the mountains thing too in case you're wondering and it will make you look just as bad as your trees, but please feel free to push a losing hand some more if you really want to!

As to the rest of your assertions about chief among blah blah blah etc etc .... If you actually understood that not all African animals are present in all areas of Africa you'd already know that there's an extremely high likelihood that African elephants were something these people had not encountered in long enough that they essentially had no idea of their existence!

What does that mean though?

Weeelll.... It essentially means that to these people at that time the hippo was almost certainly the premier king badass of the herbivore world!!!

But would that not make the hippo almost certainly be described as "chief among God's creations" etc etc if they were to write / verbally pass down stories?

Why yes! Yes, it would....

Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I don't know this stuff backwards and forwards far better than you.

a reply to: roguetechie

Cool cool... Go with that rather than solid stuff which can actually be backed up at least somewhat successfully by "a book" which is in reality lots of different loosely translated anthologies of the greatest theological hits of a relatively insignificant tiny pocket of ignorant and illiterate herders / desert dweller's religious writings! 

With such obvious bias you aren't even capable
of knowing real science. Because science
follows where the truth takes it. Despite any prejudice views of the practitioners. Proof
even really smart people can still be total
idiots.

a reply to: cooperton

The irony of your empirical data jab is astonishing just so you know.

Empirical data like the known behavior and historical habitat information about the hippo maybe?

Empirical data about the region in which the Bible came from as well as supporting data which confirms that cedar trees really did look substantially the same back then in that area?

Your posts are the ones chock full of bald assertions, hilarious ignorance of the flora fauna climate and etc of the region and time period in question, and other lovely little lies and wild ass guesses.

This is kinda pathetic and ridiculous at this point with your typical fundie arrogance ignorance and willingness to lie on full display for all to see while you try to accuse me of the very sins you and the rest of us know full well are actually the one committing!

Who said smoking doesn't cause cancer, and that intact skyscrapers crumble to dust from small fires?

Oh, right - 'science' said those things. Under oath, even.

'Science' is supposed to always be about finding the truth, the facts, and to tell the truth, and facts, to the people.

Instead...

Everyone should always believe what 'scientists' say is 100% true, without question. All those who dare to question our great 'scientists' are either total idiots, fools, or crackpots!!


So who believes in God, here?

'Science' is based on believing in 'Gods', which are called 'Experts'. They know everything, and we are dumb people. We must always believe whatever they tell us, as 'gospel truth', without question. We shall immediately scorn, and shame, and disparage, any non-believers. They are all evil, lying Infidels!!


Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

a reply to: turbonium1

Yes, I know, you dislike science. Come to that you dislike any evidence that you don't understand. I'm shocked. Wait, it's just gas. I'm guessing that your next post will contain a rant saying that gravity is false and that evolution has never happened.

a reply to: randyvs

I was raised with those views... Just because I'm basically sure they're wrong doesn't mean I don't respect them and haven't looked into them extensively.

But yes, how dare me not kiss the asses of overly powerful scam artists masquerading as spiritual leaders!!

I'll point this out ONE LAST TIME for all of you who don't seem to be getting it.

You don't know me, you don't know the specifics of my views you all suck at guessing these things based on what I write and how I choose to write them... So maybe stop thinking that you have an angle there and have found something easier to attack than what I'm actually saying...

Because you Don't!

Maybe try again and actually focus on "what I got wrong" eh sport? (Oh that's right... You can't just like Cooper can't! Silly me... Do continue!)

P.S. Cooper... What Randy here did in his response to me... THAT was a real life actual Ad Hominem! So now you have an example of the difference between the two things to consult right here on one page!!

Convenient!! Right!?

P.S. 2... Hey Randy, you did happen to notice that I am the person actually following the evidence to where it leads here wrt the whole behemoth thing? That's how come I actually looked up a crap ton of sources just to make certain I was giving valid Information on every single claim I put in my posts and wasn't misremembering something after all these years away from Sunday School Seminary and priesthood meeting.

Man you guys really suck at this whole reading people based on their posts thing!

a reply to: roguetechie

All right my bad. Forgive my habit of being
offended by typicals trying to come off
as if I'm retarded when no scientific
explanations for existence come close to
making a lick of sense. In no way and never
will because design is completely undeniably
obvious.

Is there bias in the scientific community?
Sickeningly yes.



The evidence is undeniable you are the
one not using your head and being lied to.

a reply to: randyvs

If you honestly look around and genuinely see DESIGN much less intelligent design for real in either the universe or life as we know it... Your God is a drooling moron on top of the whole malignant narcissist and psychopath thing!

The "design" argument makes good old Cooper here's behemoth is a fracking DINOSAUR argument look amazing, awesome, and insightful!

At least with that you have the whole dragon mystery backstopping the situation which is extremely perplexing and something I wonder about too! (Just not in the case of Behemoth or Saint George. Behemoth is very obviously a damn hippo and Saint George fought a monitor lizard of a type that was pretty damn large and dragon like, but still not an actual dragon most likely!)

I actually buy that some very dinosaur looking things may have made it to very very recent times and scared the bejesus out of humans all over the world when they encountered them! The myths are too widespread, the descriptions are eerily consistent, and I have no idea why people would choose to hide evidence of it but I definitely buy that even that appears to have happened.

All of this, even with the really disturbing and perplexing lack of good physical evidence, is far more believable than ID, young earth creationism, and et cetera.

But Behemoth is still a damn hippo!!!

a reply to: roguetechie

Egotistical biased and prejudice. Do you make
similar judgement calls on people as well? You
know having never met them, or knowing any
thing about them at all? But it is your opinion and
you can have it.

Be well

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: randyvs

I was raised with those views... Just because I'm basically sure they're wrong doesn't mean I don't respect them and haven't looked into them extensively.

But yes, how dare me not kiss the asses of overly powerful scam artists masquerading as spiritual leaders!!

I'll point this out ONE LAST TIME for all of you who don't seem to be getting it.

You don't know me, you don't know the specifics of my views you all suck at guessing these things based on what I write and how I choose to write them... So maybe stop thinking that you have an angle there and have found something easier to attack than what I'm actually saying...

Because you Don't!

Maybe try again and actually focus on "what I got wrong" eh sport? (Oh that's right... You can't just like Cooper can't! Silly me... Do continue!)

Look man, no one is out to get you. We're all in this search for truth together. The immense problem with the current scientific paradigm is that it insists on material reductionism and strongly implies, and often blatantly claims, that we are meaningless mutant accident of the random workings of matter. This is a deadly philosophy. It is a dead end. I've experienced it, it is a bottomless pit. Quantum physics found empirical data that is likely the closest we will ever get to scientifically understanding the greater truths of our consciousness, and clearly disproved the supposition that matter is the foundation and progenitor of reality, yet these truths have been mostly ignored by the material reductionists.

If you honestly look around and genuinely see DESIGN much less intelligent design for real in either the universe or life as we know it... Your God is a drooling moron on top of the whole malignant narcissist and psychopath thing!

Said the man typing on a device capable of communicating with anyone throughout the world, which was made by a people with brains capable of seamlessly signaling the body to execute its commands within milliseconds of the impetus. These humans are also able to replicate, express emotions, heal themselves autonomically, and reach the greatest depths of the imaginative world. They live on a planet that is in a perfect equilibirum goldi-locks zone in a solar system which has not strayed from its orbit in known history, allowing a stable environment for them to thrive with the other lifeforms on the planet. Did I forget to mention love?

Life is not moronic, but being a moron is still an option.

a reply to: randyvs

Yes how dare me apply logic and reason rather than just say gawd dun did it and the Flintstones is a F***Ing documentary!

The current fear hatred and derision towards anyone who shows competence confidence and commitment to the truth is nothing more than a sad little attempt by the militantly mediocre and downright pathetically defective in society to muzzle or outright delegitimize those with intelligence and drive...

Feel free to continue telling me I'm a bad person for not being gullible stupid and devoid of any ambition to actually progress... It's how I know I'm on the right track after all.

Do you actually think that you're going to head*** me into second guessing myself or browbeat me into stepping back into line with the herd?

You are right though about my bias and prejudice... I am extremely biased and prejudiced against slackass mediocrity and dishonesty in the name of deities!

Also... Wanna know a secret? I design and develop things as a part of my job! I don't have the degree though so I'm not technically an engineer, but for all intents and purposes that's exactly ONE of the jobs I do. You can keep spinning your little anyone can plainly see it's designed, the goldilocks zone and our planets "perfect placement" within it, and et cetera et cetera which will sadly fool far too many people....

But I'm not one of them because I actually design and develop stuff, and the only people who do actually believe that s*** who weren't indoctrinated as children are people who couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper sack!

Again though I'll say it, how about you actually try to make a case even 1% as strong for behemoth being a.... Actually... Scratch that, we both know you can't do that!

Instead, how about you try to refute JUST ONE of the pieces of supporting information or points I listed in favor of why behemoth is a hippo not a dinosaur?

Of course you won't do it because you can't do it because I verified every single bit of what I used to support my case and could have made a 100% complete set of citations covering everything!

That's why you keep having to try and head**** & or character assassinate me and throw down vague nonspecific to the point of utter meaninglessness (yet still wrong) standard YEC boilerplate assertions about things besides the actual subject at hand!

Please keep digging though because people like you two who attempt to engage and get hammered like this do so much more damage to your own positions than I could ever hope to with an encyclopedia Britannica sized multi volume Magnum opus of refutations!

The more you fire back at me the more even people on your side will come away with shaken or outright broken faith as they witness just how completely incapable you two are of actually matching me point for point!

Keep trying though I'm sure your luck will change any minute now and it will be as if the scales have dropped from your eyes as the holy spirit guides your Google fu and gives you what you need to refute my points and FINALLY make a counterpoint of your own that actually stands!!!

After all, you two have God on your side...

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: randyvs

behemoth is a hippo

Behemoth was not a hippo. Hippo's do not eat food from mountains (Job 40:20). Hippo's do not have a tail like a cedar tree (Job 40:17). Hippo's are not the chiefs of the animal kingdom (Job 40:19). Hippo's are not uncatchable/untrappable (Job 40:24). These are all attributes that are epidomized by the brachiosaurus.

Regardless, there are many other examples of humans witnessing dinosaurs, the argument for co-existance of dinosaurs and humans is not contingent solely on the Job account.

I actually design and develop stuff, and the only people who do actually believe [intelligent design] couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper sack!

I don't want to deride the topic, but your hubris needs to be addressed.

Can you engineer a pump that is capable of working non-stop for over 100 years? That's the human heart

Can you engineer a filtration device that is capable of selectively filtering out toxins and keeping necessary nutrients and also can last for over 100 years? That's human kidneys

Can you engineer a surface material that can selectively absorb and emit necessary chemicals and also repair itself? That's human skin

Can you engineer antibiotics that are capable of adapting to any new threat and selectively destroy them while leaving the host unharmed? Those are antibodies

Can you engineer a structural support that releases necessary sustenance to its surroundings and is also capable of repairing itself when broken? That's human bones

Can you engineer a micromolecular robot that is able to parse organic data and replicate it, althewhile being regulated by external cues regarding when to execute it's function? That's DNA Polymerase


From the molecular to the organ level, all features of our anatomy are meticulously designed marvels that even our best man-made invention could not replicate.

a reply to: roguetechie

Great unnecessary word salad miho. While
you're impressing yourself further just keep
this in mind. Intelligence won't rescue stupitidy.

And hippopotamos is greek for riverhorse.
Which is most likely what Adam named them.

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Thats Aghor Wat in cambodia, not Gobekli Tepe. Also debunked:

theness.com...

Debunked my a$$...

originally posted by: Pimander
The pseudoskeptics are one of the biggest disinformation propaganda tools. I think that ATS members who support this 'pseudoskeptical' thinking are either ignorant of the real facts and need educating or they are wittingly or unwittingly party to a disinformation/mind control campaign.

Pseudo-Skeptic Movement is really just propaganda and character assassinations of anyone who questions chemical-based medicine and GMOs... Steven Novella joins the ranks of the most insidious shills in America, pushing toxic medicine and toxic food for paychecks.

Labeling anyone and everyone who challenges their false narratives as quacks, cranks and skeptics, this national “quack-buster” conglomeration of sellouts and hucksters are easy to find on the internet, as they all blog relentlessly and are given the spotlight by rogue corporations and companies that want to “debunk” anyone (skeptics) challenging their own “bunk” philosophies.

Steven Novella MD - TruthWiki

a reply to: cooperton

Cedar tree... Covered ad nauseum
Untrappable.... Also covered ad nauseum but you're probably too dense to understand that several of the ABCDEF points covered the F*** outta this (aka hippos ain't untrappable now, but try doing it with at best some pig iron and very limited amounts of brass/bronze at absolute best! Possibly why I specifically mentioned HIPPO DITCHES RAZOR WIRE AK47's and the locals ceding the hippos territory on land at night rather than face them snout to snout!)
The mountains thing... Honestly you're not worth the effort to post the citations and etc, but you're just as wrong on this as the rest. And really, you even thinking that you have a gotcha in this just proves that you don't know s*** about the region now MUCH LESS SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS AGO!

You don't get to literally just double down on points I've already eviscerated and left bleeding and twitching on the floor several responses ago. That's not how you refute someone. You're wrong on those, get over it and come up with something actually challenging for me to figure out how you screwed it up!

Also as to your claims of my hubris, you're again way off base here! I don't have to be able to design any of these things myself in a single lifetime or less because that's not how it actually happened in those cases either. There are rules to design I guess you could say, or at least some pretty decent guidelines that are pretty universal.

And truthfully I'm in awe of the way layered imperfection and horrific inefficiency might very well be the "secret sauce" behind us humans having the consciousness and etc we do! That... is genuinely interesting and makes me question a bunch of things very deeply! You won't catch me ever saying that biological life in general isn't truly astounding and humbling to human designers and engineers, because it is! That said, none of that changes or goes against anything I have been saying in here. (You might get the impression that i think differently or something but that's a failure on your part in reading comprehension)

So I kinda have to ask again, what's your point?

The fact that you're again choosing to spend well over two thirds of your post completely away from the actual subject at hand is you doing EXACTLY what I said you'd do in my previous posts!

You see that right?

At this point you've for all intents and purposes effectively given up on actually addressing my criticisms and are trying to drag me into side battles just as I pointed out you were going to do.

Maybe at some point you should take a step back, actually reread exactly what I've been saying in here, realize that I have your number exactly and all but know what you're going to say before you do, realize that means i probably have some pretty valid points, and actually maybe throw out a tentative response taking a new tack on something that I've said I share at least some of your thoughts on to see if you can get your thread back on track.