Almost half of US families can't afford basics like rent and food

a reply to: Aazadan

I'm not sure what you guys think a middle class lifestyle is, but you're crazy. $29.1k month is in no way a mid tier middle class income or lifestyle.

a reply to: Edumakated

Exactly, people don't understand that starting make a decent living has more to do with adequate budget management than an astronomical dollar amount.

We are nowhere near that ridiculous $350K amount, but we live pretty well and have the money to do the things people would likely think of as more middle-class.

We aren't rich, but we're fairly comfortable.

But it helps we aren't playing the "keep up with the Joneses" game too.

originally posted by: AnonymousMoose

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CB328

When was the last time all Americans could afford rent and food?

My late grandmother used to joke, before we moved north, that they had more to live on & not starve or go homeless when she was a kid in the Great Depression than families do today.

She was a sarcastic old broad, but she might not have been joking, either. Sometimes truths were just heavily dipped in the sarc & we didn't realize it.

Thats because they knew how to farm , hunt , trap fish.
Forgot the major one - They built their own homes out of chopped down trees.
Folks today ? Not so much
Comparing totally different times and situations

Today , folks do not concentrate on food and shelter. They have to have a Lexus , high priced phones , tats , etc.
Who has money left for unnecessary things like food and a place to live ?

Also today, there is a crippling amount of government regulation...one cannot cut down some trees on there own property without government interference, one cannot build a house without a licensed contractor and permits, one cannot simply go hunt or fish without a license and strict regulation (seasons, bag limits, etc). The people today cannot be as independent as those generations years ago...

What ?
I can cut down any tree that I feel a need to in my woods.

a reply to: CB328

That's a nice talking point, but it doesn't really say anything.

Do you believe that helping the poor is completely contingent on removing money from elsewhere?

Hypothetically speaking, what if a solution was devised that not only alleviated (or even eliminated) concerns like lack of shelter and food, but did it for less money than we currently spend?

I mean, its fine if you just want to rail against the "rich," MIC, etc. but have you explored other avenues that don't involve the upper income brackets, or military, at all?

For some, it seems the poor are just used as a moral platform to attack other social groups they dislike. I'd much rather actually help people in need without the need for further proselytizing.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Some people who have lived through minimum wage increases while making minimum wage at the time told you this would happen.

Income inequality is not due to minimum wage laws, it has to do with the inflation rates which are in turn calculated based on an utterly absurd system for determining CPI that was implemented 40 years ago.

originally posted by: Edumakated
You are a working stiff who just makes good money. It means you fully fund 401k. Maybe can afford private school and a nice vacation.

So essentially... middle class expectations.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

I'm not sure what you guys think a middle class lifestyle is, but you're crazy. $29.1k month is in no way a mid tier middle class income or lifestyle.

Check the article in the thread I linked, it outlined it. It was a dual income family, in a small home, with one car, an annual vacation, health insurance, college funds for both kids, a fully funded 401k, eating out once a week, etc... nothing extravagant.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Exactly, people don't understand that starting make a decent living has more to do with adequate budget management than an astronomical dollar amount.

We are nowhere near that ridiculous $350K amount, but we live pretty well and have the money to do the things people would likely think of as more middle-class.

We aren't rich, but we're fairly comfortable.

But it helps we aren't playing the "keep up with the Joneses" game too.

You're also not on the coast (which was defined as an ocean bordering state). $350k on the coast is equal to about $150k in the middle.

Those at $50k, even though that's the median income in the US, are not middle class. That is being comfortably poor. It's not poverty, but it doesn't result in having any real assets either.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
Where are you getting that the average house is $300K? And yep...thanks to Obamacare, medical insurance is really high and we couldn't keep our docs.

The median price of a home in the US is about $200k, but that's across the entire country and includes all the more rural areas where high paying jobs don't exist. To live in an area where you can reasonably expect to work for above $10/hour it is much higher than $300k.

This shouldn't be too surprising, it takes $350k/year in the US to be middle class these days.

350k is closer to the top 1% then it is middle class.
Its

"The Upper Middle Class

According to census data from 2015, 6.1% of households bring in $200,000 and higher every year and 14.1% bring in between $100,000 and $150,000. This is the upper middle class.

An Urban Institute paper argued that what they referred to as upper middle class, or those with a three-person household income between $100,000 and $350,000, has grown from 12.9% of the population in 1979 to 29.4% in 2014. It found that people with higher incomes saw their earnings grow faster than those with lower incomes."

"The Urban Institute defined the middle class as adults with size-adjusted household incomes of between $30,000 and $100,000 for families of three."

www.investopedia.com...

a reply to: Aazadan

Somehow I do all of that on far, far less. In fact, I have two cars and eat out a couple times per week. Well, I don't max out the 401k contribution ($18k) but I save my 15%, which is more than enough, especially with matching.

originally posted by: opethPA
According to census data from 2015, 6.1% of households bring in $200,000 and higher every year and 14.1% bring in between $100,000 and $150,000. This is the upper middle class.

I'm defining it as a traditional middle class lifestyle. Purely by income demographics it's what used to be within 50% to 100% of the median wage which today would be $26k to $108k as middle class.

That however, is not enough anymore to support what is thought of as a middle class lifestyle, for that you need to be at or above $300k on the coasts or $150k in the midwest (excluding the rural lifestyle).

On the coasts, $100k is the starting wage for a fresh college grad. The monetary scale based on region in the US varies a lot.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

Somehow I do all of that on far, far less. In fact, I have two cars and eat out a couple times per week. Well, I don't max out the 401k contribution ($18k) but I save my 15%, which is more than enough, especially with matching.

No it's not. You should be saving 50% or more of your income, $18k is not even the bare minimum you should be putting away (though that's all the $350k example I used saved). If you don't have the money to afford to do that... then maybe revisit my point that income inequality is too high and the vast majority of people are being underpaid, and happily settling for less because they still have something.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: opethPA
According to census data from 2015, 6.1% of households bring in $200,000 and higher every year and 14.1% bring in between $100,000 and $150,000. This is the upper middle class.

I'm defining it as a traditional middle class lifestyle. Purely by income demographics it's what used to be within 50% to 100% of the median wage which today would be $26k to $108k as middle class.

That however, is not enough anymore to support what is thought of as a middle class lifestyle, for that you need to be at or above $300k on the coasts or $150k in the midwest (excluding the rural lifestyle).

On the coasts, $100k is the starting wage for a fresh college grad. The monetary scale based on region in the US varies a lot.

So its your opinion then because factually middle class is substantially less than that.

I dont make 300k but I make more than 150k and I comfortably living a traditional middle class lifestyle. Where does my salary classify my in your opinion table?

What source are you using the 100k is a starting wage for a fresh college grad..thats ridiculous.

originally posted by: opethPA
What source are you using the 100k is a starting wage for a fresh college grad..thats ridiculous.

The post I linked has a thread in it. I'll repost it here for you.

finance.yahoo.com...

Before we look at the income statement, I’d like to go through a list of various workers who will eventually make ~$300,000 on their own or in household income if they find someone who also works.

* A Bay Area Rapid Transit janitor made $234,000 + $36,000 in benefits in 2016

* A Bay Area Rapid Transit elevator technician made $235,814 + $48,429 in benefits in 2016

* Starting salaries for 22-year-old employees at Facebook, Google, and Apple range from ($80,000 – $120,000) + ($10,000 – $50,000) in annual equity grants.

* A 30-year-old first year Associate in banking earns $150,000 in base salary + ($0 – $120,000) in bonus

* A 26-year-old Airbnb employee shared he got a $250,000 total compensation package back in 2015

* A 26-year-old first year law associate at a firm like Cravath makes $180,000 base + $20,000 sign on bonus. By the end of their sixth year they are making over $300,000.

* A 29-year-old director of marketing at a startup makes between $120,000 – $180,000.

* A personal finance blogger with 500,000 pageviews earns between $150,000 – $600,000

* A 42-year-old college professor at Berkeley makes $235,000 on average and $279,000 at Columbia and NYU

* The average specialist doctor finishing his or her fellowship at 32 makes $300,000. The average salary for a primary care physician is $200,000.

* A 26-year-old middle school teacher making $55,000 a year plus her $250,000 a year VP of marketing wife

* A 56-year-old high school athletic director making $100,000 a year plus his $200,000 a year management consultant husband

The permutations of people making $300,000 goes on and on. For many professionals, if they aren’t there now, they will get to such a level of income eventually if they team up.

I dont make 300k but I make more than 150k and I comfortably living a traditional middle class lifestyle. Where does my salary classify my in your opinion table?

It varies by where you live. Most (about 60%) of people live in coastal cities. Another 20% live in coastal states, The rest live in the midwest.

Which state, and city vs rural plays a big factor.

If you would like, I can give you the type of budget you should be trying to keep to. Most are not able to do it.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

I'm not sure what you guys think a middle class lifestyle is, but you're crazy. $29.1k month is in no way a mid tier middle class income or lifestyle.

Again, it depends on where you live.

In major cities, a much larger percentage of the population makes that kind of money or more and thus cost of living reflects this fact.

While the US as a whole, a household income of say $400k puts you in the top 1%, it is much higher in high cost of living cities. Here is a map from the NY Times comparing top 1% earners in various parts of the country.

Top 1% in Various Cities

For example. In Clayton, GA you only need to make $98,000 to be in the top 1%. However, in Manhattan (NYC), you need to make $1.425 million. Let that sink in. A guy making $350k in NYC is doing ok, but hardly balling out with Jay Z and P Diddy. He is in fact, middle class by most measures. Now, he ain't "struggling" to make ends meet, but in no way is considered "rich".

In Silicon Valley, you have to make $1.1 million to be a 1%er. Again, $350k is doing well, but hardly rich... especially when a modest 1000 sqft 3 bed / 1 bath crap shack like this borderline meth lab in Cupertino, CA (where Apple is headquartered) will set you $1.5 million.

3 Bedroom / 1 bath

With 20% down at 4.5%, you are looking a mortgage payment of $6436. Throw in property taxes of about $1500/mo you are at $8k/mo.

So going back to that $350k/yr.... After taxes, call it 40% between Fed & State, you net $17,500. A good $8500 is out the door for sh*thole house... you got $9k left. God forbid you have two kids and need daycare, so now you are looking at probably another $4,000/mo gone. You got $5k left. Need to put some money away for retirement. If you fully fund the 401k to $18,000 that is another $1500 gone. So now you got $3500.

We haven't even gotten into a car payment... food.... gas... car insurance... utilities... lawncare.... student loan payments...


The thing is those types of jobs that pay that kind of money are almost exclusively located in high cost of living areas too. Sure, if you can make $350k / yr and don't mind living in a rural area you will be living like a king. However, it is much harder to do that because those types of jobs and careers are not as plentiful.

The real takeaway is that the incomes in the US are extremely varied by region. What is rich in one area, may in fact be middle class in another. This is why tax policy is so misguided because it treats everyone the same regardless of their cost of living.

$350k is upper middle class in most major cities. It may seem rich to someone in flyover country, but the reality is far from it.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: AnonymousMoose

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CB328

When was the last time all Americans could afford rent and food?

My late grandmother used to joke, before we moved north, that they had more to live on & not starve or go homeless when she was a kid in the Great Depression than families do today.

She was a sarcastic old broad, but she might not have been joking, either. Sometimes truths were just heavily dipped in the sarc & we didn't realize it.

Thats because they knew how to farm , hunt , trap fish.
Forgot the major one - They built their own homes out of chopped down trees.
Folks today ? Not so much
Comparing totally different times and situations

Today , folks do not concentrate on food and shelter. They have to have a Lexus , high priced phones , tats , etc.
Who has money left for unnecessary things like food and a place to live ?

Also today, there is a crippling amount of government regulation...one cannot cut down some trees on there own property without government interference, one cannot build a house without a licensed contractor and permits, one cannot simply go hunt or fish without a license and strict regulation (seasons, bag limits, etc). The people today cannot be as independent as those generations years ago...

What ?
I can cut down any tree that I feel a need to in my woods.

You must not live in California lol

originally posted by: AnonymousMoose

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: AnonymousMoose

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CB328

When was the last time all Americans could afford rent and food?

My late grandmother used to joke, before we moved north, that they had more to live on & not starve or go homeless when she was a kid in the Great Depression than families do today.

She was a sarcastic old broad, but she might not have been joking, either. Sometimes truths were just heavily dipped in the sarc & we didn't realize it.

Thats because they knew how to farm , hunt , trap fish.
Forgot the major one - They built their own homes out of chopped down trees.
Folks today ? Not so much
Comparing totally different times and situations

Today , folks do not concentrate on food and shelter. They have to have a Lexus , high priced phones , tats , etc.
Who has money left for unnecessary things like food and a place to live ?

Also today, there is a crippling amount of government regulation...one cannot cut down some trees on there own property without government interference, one cannot build a house without a licensed contractor and permits, one cannot simply go hunt or fish without a license and strict regulation (seasons, bag limits, etc). The people today cannot be as independent as those generations years ago...

What ?
I can cut down any tree that I feel a need to in my woods.

You must not live in California lol

You seriously have to wonder why anyone would choose to live in California.

a reply to: Edumakated

Ok, let's keep that example going. You've got $3500/mo left over. That's 42k/yr take home. Probably about the same take home as the guy making 54k/yr. But you've paid all your bills except a car (which if you live in a big city, you may not even have one) and utilities. Most of the middle class mows their own lawn, even the upper middle, so that's $500-1,000 one time expense assuming you get a good mower. So now you're down to 41k. We'll lump water/electricity/cable/internet/phone together and call that $1k/month, which is overly generous. Then throw in a $50k car, 100% financed, that's $900/month. Well now we have $17,000 left over to play with each year.

Let's do a vacation to disney world for a week, according to Time magazine, this will cost you about $6,700 (all expenses included, including travel) We'll round it up to $7k for some niceties and incidentals. We've got 10k left over still, or ~830 dollars a month. We could do disney again, eat out a few times a week, and donate to charity.

Now, a few notes: The budget we've created is in no way a middle class budget. The middle class isn't maxing out 401k donations. They're not paying 4k/mo for child care (their kids are in school from 5-18) and even most private schools are no where near 4k month. Hell, the average for the nation is like 12k per year. In cupertino the average is $300/wk for day care of small kids (the most expensive). The middle class isn't driving a brand new 50k car.

That said, you're right, this isn't filthy rich. It's kind of an in between. My sister in law makes this kind of money and she's not filthy rich. She's above upper middle class though.

originally posted by: Aazadan

Check the article in the thread I linked, it outlined it. It was a dual income family, in a small home, with one car, an annual vacation, health insurance, college funds for both kids, a fully funded 401k, eating out once a week, etc... nothing extravagant.

NOTHING EXTRAVAGANT??????

THAT kind of life is LUXURY.

There's a delusion going on here somewhere.

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: Aazadan

Check the article in the thread I linked, it outlined it. It was a dual income family, in a small home, with one car, an annual vacation, health insurance, college funds for both kids, a fully funded 401k, eating out once a week, etc... nothing extravagant.

NOTHING EXTRAVAGANT??????

THAT kind of life is LUXURY.

There's a delusion going on here somewhere.

So you don't consider those types of things to be the mark of middle class? What then do you consider middle class to be?