Were the pyramids originally pyramids at all?

I've been reading lately about the pyramid of Meidum. It's the one prior to the bent pyramid. The one that supposedly "collapsed" because it was built at too steep an angle.

en.wikipedia.org...

Odd thing is, it didn't. Not really. Basically, underneath the true pyramid outer shell was a step pyramid. The outer shell totally collapsed, and I guess the top couple of stages fell off with that.

However, the inner step pyramid core survived the collapse. The base, and even the internal passages of the pyramid are still there and in fine shape. That suggests to me that the step pyramid underneath the outer pyramid was built by someone before, who knew what they were doing, and was never meant to be any bigger than it was. It was never meant to become a pyramid.

Apparently the people who constructed the outer pyramid shell, to fill the step pyramid out into a true pyramid, - they somehow didn't realize the foundation was only wide enough to support the core step pyramid structure. The outer shell was basically built on top of loose sand, and that is why it all slid off and collapsed.



So, now, moving over to the Giza pyramid. We've got these mysterious shafts coming out of the King's Chamber and Queen's chamber. Except in the Queen's chamber they were covered by the interior limestone, and they are blocked on the other end so they don't reach the outside.

That would be a lot less of a mystery if we assume the original structure had left those vents open, and it was Khufu's workers who came along afterward and blocked them.

The interior of the Queen's chamber is finished in Tura limestone, from the Tura Quarry 8 miles away, which is the same limestone from which the casing stones were made. So whoever did the casing stones probably also did the interior walls of the queen's chamber.





So this makes me wonder, was the Great Pyramid perhaps built over the top of another, somewhat different, structure? Was the original structure even a pyramid at all?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Good question, what do you think they may have been used for before they were pyramids? Grain storage, temples, graves or what?

ask the architects who constructed the glass pyramid in Las Vegas.

Shelter
Think the Mahabharata of India.

Why go to those lengths then? Seems a bit extreme? Why not just remove what was there prior and use the stone for something else rather than go to the extremes of planning, engineering and doing what is there today?

Nice idea, but not really feasible.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I get it. It's just that it's rather "over the top". Most people as history proves, just smashed things down or removed what was there and re-used the building material for something else?

You are drawing false conclusions. Ancient egyptian pyramid construction has a documented history, they began as mastabas, then with mudbrick outer construction, then outer fine limestone and inner filling block construction.
When they built the first pyramids they tried a technique with inward leaning mudbricks for the outer sides which resulted in instabilty and collapse.
After that they used more limestone-based horizontal step/ course construction. After the forth dynasty they went back to smaller pyramids again.

Then the shafts of the GP's queens chamber, as far as we know there were used during and for the construction an then sealed. Gantenbrink's work shows that the upper ends of these shafts and famous blocking stones are the same kind of limestone as the original white outer casing Tura limestone.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

I've been reading lately about the pyramid of Meidum. It's the one prior to the bent pyramid. The one that supposedly "collapsed" because it was built at too steep an angle.

en.wikipedia.org...

Odd thing is, it didn't. Not really. Basically, underneath the true pyramid outer shell was a step pyramid. The outer shell totally collapsed, and I guess the top couple of stages fell off with that.

However, the inner step pyramid core survived the collapse. The base, and even the internal passages of the pyramid are still there and in fine shape. That suggests to me that the step pyramid underneath the outer pyramid was built by someone before, who knew what they were doing, and was never meant to be any bigger than it was. It was never meant to become a pyramid.

Apparently the people who constructed the outer pyramid shell, to fill the step pyramid out into a true pyramid, - they somehow didn't realize the foundation was only wide enough to support the core step pyramid structure. The outer shell was basically built on top of loose sand, and that is why it all slid off and collapsed.



So, now, moving over to the Giza pyramid. We've got these mysterious shafts coming out of the King's Chamber and Queen's chamber. Except in the Queen's chamber they were covered by the interior limestone, and they are blocked on the other end so they don't reach the outside.

That would be a lot less of a mystery if we assume the original structure had left those vents open, and it was Khufu's workers who came along afterward and blocked them.

The interior of the Queen's chamber is finished in Tura limestone, from the Tura Quarry 8 miles away, which is the same limestone from which the casing stones were made. So whoever did the casing stones probably also did the interior walls of the queen's chamber.





So this makes me wonder, was the Great Pyramid perhaps built over the top of another, somewhat different, structure? Was the original structure even a pyramid at all?

I'm inclined to agree. I think most pyramidic structures world-wide were build-overs.

Mexico City itself is one giant covered over build-over.

MS

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

landing pads for spaceships didn't you ever watch Stargate

originally posted by: CaptainBeno
Why go to those lengths then? Seems a bit extreme? Why not just remove what was there prior and use the stone for something else rather than go to the extremes of planning, engineering and doing what is there today?

Nice idea, but not really feasible.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I get it. It's just that it's rather "over the top". Most people as history proves, just smashed things down or removed what was there and re-used the building material for something else?

The Granite in the King's Chamber includes blocks that weigh over 25 tons, so removing them might be more difficult than you'd think.

But more importantly: It would make it easier to build a bigger monument if you build over a standing structure that already includes a lot of size.

In other documented cases, they would sometimes start their pyramid on a natural hill, so the hill could save them the work so they could set fewer stones and still get a very big pyramid.

originally posted by: anti72
You are drawing false conclusions. Ancient egyptian pyramid construction has a documented history, they began as mastabas, then with mudbrick outer construction, then outer fine limestone and inner filling block construction.
When they built the first pyramids they tried a technique with inward leaning mudbricks for the outer sides which resulted in instabilty and collapse.
After that they used more limestone-based horizontal step/ course construction. After the forth dynasty they went back to smaller pyramids again.

Either that or whoever set up that history drew false conclusions.

Re-use of previous monuments has occurred all through documented history. Like the Romans building on top of Baalbek. People in the old world didn't typically waste good construction materials and/or previously set foundations.

Then the shafts of the GP's queens chamber, as far as we know there were used during and for the construction an then sealed. Gantenbrink's work shows that the upper ends of these shafts and famous blocking stones are the same kind of limestone as the original white outer casing Tura limestone.

They're pretty small to have been useful for anything much at all, except the obvious purpose : air vents. Although it is clear they got blocked in when the pyramid's casing stones were added.

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Good question, what do you think they may have been used for before they were pyramids? Grain storage, temples, graves or what?

I am convinced by the theory on this other thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

That the lower chamber of Giza was a ram pump. However that doesn't mean the whole structure was dedicated to any particular purpose. The ram pump might have been there for the most obvious purpose of all: to provide plumbing.


It might have been just a building. Maybe the original version was just the inner core of a palace, with wooden buildings growing out from there (at a time when there was more foliage in the area.) But the wooden parts didn't survive up to the time of the Pharaohs. And the stone part was all that was left.

According to the account of Edward Vyse, the guy who discovered the relieving chambers above the King's chamber, the first chamber was full of insect remains, and another chamber was full of bat guano. That might have been left there on purpose by the builders as a tactic for keeping the chamber dry. Or it could mean that at some point in the structure's history there had been an ecosystem in place that would allow for insects to inhabit those chambers, and bats to feed off of them.


It doesn't need to be a death star or anything loony like that. The vents in the Queen's chamber might have been there literally as exactly that: vents to provide ventilation for people who lived and/or worked there.

Or maybe, as the other thread is suggesting: the core structure of the Great Pyramid had been nothing more than just a very big aquifer, with an incorporated ram pump to bring water up to a higher elevation, so it could be irrigated to the surrounding area.

And that would imply that the ascending passage had originally been where the water flowed out.

But by the time of the pharaohs, the Nile had moved further away, and the aquifer no longer served any purpose.

However, its elegant granite construction would make a great frame upon which to build the largest pyramid anyone had ever built.

But when it was functioning as an aquifer it had not yet been made into it's present outward shape.

I think oppositely...the 'mountains' were built as sign/symbols of that City State's prowess and Status in the Region or Area...if you had the technology and manpower to build a massive Earthen Mountain (AKA: Pyramid) or an highly labor intensive Stone Mountain which stood taller and more elaborate than a mere Earthen mound... then the Leader or King had more power than any other Neighbor

Egypt commanded the mot respect/Status... even the unstoppable Roman Armies heeded the makers of the Egyptian Classy and elaborate (but close to 2000 year old Pyramids/Temples/Obelisks...)
Egypt's Mountains are still Wonders-of-the-Ancient-World

it seems that 100s of disburse mounds/mountains/Pyramids are still being discovered all over the places where humans grouped in larger numbers & became metro areas that then required/demanded a 'mountain' for that place or people be erected forth-with so as to establish themselves as able & adept to create such things---> then what other secret weapons or talents/Ally's.... might that 'mountain' provide for those creative people who pilgrimaged to that Mountain as an act of loyalty/belief


it was a power play....My dog is bigger, fiercer, faster, more splendid...than Your dog !

Bluffing certainly helps. There is evidence that Khafre's pyramid was purposefully situated so that it would appear bigger than Khufu's when approached from certain angles. Even though it is, in fact, smaller. The Egyptians certainly weren't above doing that.

I understand creating a project as huge as possible as a show of power. Overtaxing the people can be used as a means of keeping them powerless. Too poor to offer resistance. And a large project can be a pretext to creating a very large bureaucracy that then becomes an emperor's machine of control.


What I find to be simply too incredible is the 20 year implementation. Also the visible masonry found immediately under the outer casing stones just plain looks too shoddy to hold up. If there were a core built out of something more solid, and better constructed, then a shoddy exterior construction could survive antiquity.

Whether your hypothesis is that it was a power plant, a light source, an agricultural thingamajig that altered the soil, a space elevator............... whatever you think it was.

In all cases, it makes more sense to assume the big pyramids as we know it today is a structure that was built over something else.

Going into more detail about Meidum and the Bent Pyramid:

en.wikipedia.org...

Apparently it is certainly known that Snofru gave the order to transform the step pyramid into a true pyramid. That he had built the underlying structure earlier is only assumed, but not confirmed.

(Some attribute it to Huni, his predecessor, ..... which indicates they are just guessing blindly and have no real clue who built it.)

www.ancient-egypt.org...

Recent archaeological research has led to the assumption that Snofru built this pyramid before his 15th year, and then abandoned the site to start a new royal cemetery at Dashur, some 40 kilometres to the North. What is certain is that Snofru at one point during his reign -and some suggest a high date such as the 28th or 29th year of his reign- ordered the transformation of the original Step Pyramid into a true pyramid. It is unlikely that Snofru usurped this pyramid, since he already had built two other pyramids at Dashur. The reason why this king would have wanted 3 pyramids, making him the most productive pyramid builder in the history of Egypt, are not known. It is also not known whether the conversion of the original Step Pyramid into a true Pyramid was completed.

So we know for sure he changed it, but there is debate as to who built the step pyramid under it. Also the same web site is kind enough to describe the Bent Pyramid.

Unfortunately, the building technique that was used -a technique going back to the Step Pyramids which consisted of using inward leaning courses- did not help to stabilise this monument. Fearing that the pyramid would collapse under its own weight, its slope was lowered to 43°22' somewhere halfway up the building. It is possible that the upper part of the Bent Pyramid was continued only after finishing the Red Pyramid, which was built a couple of kilometres to the North of the Bent Pyramid. In any case, the Red Pyramid has exactly the same slope of 43°22' as the upper part of the Bent Pyramid. In its finished state, this pyramid has a base length of 188 metres and is 105 metres high.

Inward leaning concourses? Perhaps those were a structure unto themselves, and when the outer shell was being constructed it turned out this structure couldn't hold the amount of stone they wanted to pile on top of it? So it started to crack.

A mistake by the engineers, or just a bad guess as to what kind of tolerances somebody else's construction would support?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Your thinking is 'out of the box' thinking.

It is making me think about ALL the pyramids more!

Thanks.

Originally, this was a double post *blush*, but I will edit it to add another comment.

It seems more than normal for cultures that come later to build upon structures build at strategic places by earlier cultures.

BUT even considering that ... the idea that a later civilization in Egypt may build on top of earlier step pyramids from an earlier Egyptian culture is new to me. I never considered that, in that way.

Thanks!

The Greco-Roman scholars claim Egypt to be a big map, I'd say they were built over for that purpose, they mark points on a map. Must be a very important map..

originally posted by: Prene
The Greco-Roman scholars claim Egypt to be a big map, I'd say they were built over for that purpose, they mark points on a map. Must be a very important map..

Egypt is indeed a big map.
A life-sized map of Egypt.

Harte

A ruined step pyramid was recently discovered in Khazakhstan, which is about as old as the Meidum pyramid. I don't know how big it was, but it is believed to have had 6 steps.


www.express.co.uk...

As you can see, there isn't much left of it:

cdn.images.express.co.uk...


Related? I don't know. Maybe.

Maybe not.