Since when is SOCIALISM aka communism ok for Democrats to push in the USA? Soft targets....

a reply to: CB328

So how could you possibly implement socialism without stepping on the Constitution?

Because doing so goes back to the aforementioned statement: "patriots won't stand for it, and would decisively prevent any such subversion of our Constitution"

But yes, this country was not formed as a capitalist nation. It is a Constitutional Republic.

a reply to: Liquesence

Oh, it's being pushed. It's just more clever.

Certainly not any single individual I'd ever support. To be sure, fascism is one of the most invasive and diabolical systems of oppression ever conceived of.

Are you sure about that?

With 3%, Oath Keepers, etc? Absolutely sure. As a member of both those organizations, we would act decisively if fascists ever attempted to overthrow our Constitution, our government or attempted to oppress our fellow Citizens. Absolutely, 100% without any doubt. We may not be "on your side" politically, but are on your side as fellow Citizens.

Our system of government isn't perfect, that I am certain of. And there may even be far better alternatives out there. I just personally have not seen one as of yet. But we are a work in progress, and I think this country is worth working hard for

a reply to: JBurns

To be sure, fascism is one of the most invasive and diabolical systems of oppression ever conceived of.

You just have to recognize when it's happening.

As a member of both those organizations, we would act decisively if fascists ever attempted to overthrow our Constitution, our government or attempted to oppress our fellow Citizens. Absolutely, 100% without any doubt

Are you sure??? Because you seem pretty stuck up Trump's ass.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: luthier

so you don't think conservatives destroyed the 4th by bringing in the Patriot act, surveillance, allowing corporate lobby power to destroy competition?

Thank you for illustrating this.

As a Trump voter who proudly stands for the *entirety* of the Bill of Rights, I sincerely thank you.

Yes, the Patriot Act and secret spy programs are a definitive violation of the 4th amendment.

Socialism and communism result in less personal liberty and freedom.
Yes, even capitalism results in less than absolute liberty/freedom.

The question is, what works better? That was rhetorical. A Constitutional Republic is one answer: something we were already given by our fore-fathers. Sadly this has been bastardized and manipulated and "interpreted" (thanks to our courts/congress) to generally mean "less freedom/more regulation"

Agree with you though, this is divide/conquer playing out. And judging by the bulk of us (me included), it is working as 'they' planned

Thanks man. I understand the reason for voting for trump. I am an independent who leans libertarian, with a bleeding heart. But I am from a rural low population liberal state. I never grew to hate liberals and saw great people and some liberal programs work due to the fact my state has a lower population than most cities.

I also know it doesn't work federally and never will. The states and their people work when they are let be who they are. Of course some oversight and basic human rights are accounted for in the Constitution.

But I don't for a second think one side is better than the other.

originally posted by: CB328

What happened to the Capitalist ideals that created this Country?

Capitalism wasn't even invented when this country started, learn something first before you start attacking people.

This country started in communal, agrarian societies wih a tiny bit of entrepreneurship when the ships came twice a year to buy tobacco.

Our country today is corporatism which is inhuman, immoral and unsustainable. Socialism is better for society.

The USA was founded on the principles of mercantilism, which was absolutely a predecessor to capitalism. Mercantilism is essentially capitalism without a central bank involved.

"Communal/agrarian" works wonderfully in small communities, but is utterly untenable across the wider swath of the nation with differing priorities, needs, and drives. Even the most libertarian communities in the US still embrace the ideology of strong, streamlined local governments... The rural areas of America are a testament to this, but it isn't socialism, it's simply communities of like people. Add the melting pot concept into things, integrating many different cultures, each with disparate value systems, and it fails everytime.

Socialism won't work in the US because we're in no way homogenous. The societies that are always pointed to as successes in socialism, the Netherlands, Japan, Denmark, Finland, tend to have the lowest cultural diversity of any developed nations. The less diversity you have, the more shared priorities and values you have. The same people celebrating the US becoming more diverse are often the same ones who call the loudest for socialism and, irony of ironies, they're celebrating two ideologies which are absolutely incompatible with each other.

a reply to: TheJesuit

That’s because you only watch right wing media.. well or you have no idea what the definition of communism and socialism are...

If one looks at the Communist objectives from the 1960s many of the things they were aiming for have been achieved primarily through the Democratic Party and liberal mindset. I still feel the Republicans are very corrupt as well as evidenced by what has transpired since Trump's Presidency started.

The ideas expressed by the young liberal minds (corrupted by University professors) are very akin to socialist thought and I actually don't disagree with some of it (free state university) but most of it is them just wanting everything without working for it and not building resilience into their lives.

a reply to: SpartanStoic

If one looks at the Communist objectives from the 1960s many of the things they were aiming for have been achieved primarily through the Democratic Party and liberal mindset

Sort of like when Trump talked about revoking press rights from those who don't agree with him. Yes, very Democratic and liberal of him

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I'm confused here... so to be a liberal you embrace change. In fact, most change around the world has embraced libertarian and liberal mindset to bring for PROGRESS to a nation. Basically a socialist population that has not engulfed the governments to form 'communism'.

What you are saying is that some how liberal mindset is now evolving into progressiv-ism?

I think I am living in the twilight zone here, are you seriously just making up a political ideology just for the sake of attacking it?

Uh, no, I did not say that. It’s simple history. Maybe You are living in a twilight zone.

originally posted by: TheJesuit
What ever happened to working together to compromise on both sides of the aisle ?instead all I see nowadays is outrageous fake , misleading and predominantly Communist/Socialist narrative being portrayed in the MSM &also being push in the US education system with parents completely unawares!
What happened to the Capitalist ideals that created this Country? I believe we are unaware that the US institutions that held those believe s are under sever and open attack soft targets aka w/o bloodshed attacking the very ideals and traits that espouse a Capitalist mindset.
Your thoughts ATS? Cheers!

Ever since the top .1% have more wealth than the bottom 90% combined. Capitalism eventually gets out of control which always necessitates some socialist adjustments.

a reply to: TheJesuit

I just wish to lead you aside a moment and have a quiet word.

Jesus said
"If you have two coats and your brother has non give him the one you are NOT using"

In the time of the prophets rules were established that a portion of the nation's wealth in the land's of the Israelite would be given periodically to the poor, exploited foreigners (Slaves and forced workers) were to be converted to Judaism and when converted could only then be kept as slaves for a short period of a few more years then they were given enough to start there new life BY LAW, we learned to find slavery repugnant because GOD DOES.

Jesus said
"As you treat the least of these so too do you treat ME"

The US is by nature right wing, it is built on the body's of several native people's whom were systematically wiped out in the largest human holocaust in recorded history and is populated today by the descendants not only of innocent migrant's of whom the majority ARE descended but also by the descendant's of the criminal element whom committed this heinous act and so it's morality is highly suspect and should be regarded as such.

You use the name of Jesuit, Not all Jesuit's ARE friends of Jesus but it was originally intended to be so and not just another branch of Opus Dei with that particular secret society's right wing corruption of God's will at it's very heart.

Lastly the Church is NOT god, it is supposed to be his flock, the priests are supposed to be Shepherds not WOLVES.

The good shepherd - the government in this case is supposed to care about the LEAST fortunate, the most needy and if necessary leave the 99 to go after the 1.

Karl Marx did NOT create socialism he merely constructed the concept of an ATHEIST socialism.

The earliest church's held there wealth communal - they were not community's of cloistered priests and nun's but family's whom worked and cared for there sick and needy, there priests also worked and did not live solely off the fat of the land.

The true history of Socialism - social payments to the poor, sanctuary city's etc is very much genuinely entwined in the very fabric and history of the TRUE right wing, the sheep of GOD's right hand and the earthy political right wing you may like to note are actually extremely to GOD's LEFT hand.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I'm confused here... so to be a liberal you embrace change. In fact, most change around the world has embraced libertarian and liberal mindset to bring for PROGRESS to a nation. Basically a socialist population that has not engulfed the governments to form 'communism'.

What you are saying is that some how liberal mindset is now evolving into progressiv-ism?

I think I am living in the twilight zone here, are you seriously just making up a political ideology just for the sake of attacking it?

Uh, no, I did not say that. It’s simple history. Maybe You are living in a twilight zone.

No, you just don't understand what progressivism really means. That's all.
You put some weird twist on the meaning to make it fit a narrative you see fit.

Liberalism ultimately, and literally means to be progressive, you cannot have progress unless you advocate liberal mindset. Good god, I feel like I am reading someone who posts on /pol/... ATS really has hit a low.

a reply to: Gothmog

A social platform being an ethics and moral systems based on "communistic values" or socialistic values... or a society based on communistic ethics.

so, communism advocates the abolishment of class, an egalitarian based society, mutual aid, community consensus etc, that is the 'social-platform'

nothing to do with Facebook

a reply to: SpartanStoic

No, because communism calls for and advocates the eventual abolishment of the State and monetary systems through a transitional period of socialism, that is nowhere close to the neoliberal capitalists democrats

a reply to: SpartanStoic

I still feel the Republicans are very corrupt as well as evidenced by what has transpired since Trump's Presidency started.

Please be more specific. As in, at least one real example.

I've seen zero corruption by this administration. Although lots of illegal and reprehensible attacks *against* this administration.

a reply to: strongfp

All liberals are not "progressives"

Hence the internal strife within the Democratic party.

Liberalism is supposed to be about supporting civil rights for all individuals, among other issues. Progressives believe in more government control, which *should* be sacrosanct to the objective of liberalism

I don't care much about the ideology/pet issues of each respect group. What I care about is which group will *best* protect the entire Bill of Rights (1A, 2A, 4A, 5A included)

originally posted by: TheJesuit
What ever happened to working together to compromise on both sides of the aisle ?instead all I see nowadays is outrageous fake , misleading and predominantly Communist/Socialist narrative being portrayed in the MSM &also being push in the US education system with parents completely unawares!
What happened to the Capitalist ideals that created this Country? I believe we are unaware that the US institutions that held those believe s are under sever and open attack soft targets aka w/o bloodshed attacking the very ideals and traits that espouse a Capitalist mindset.
Your thoughts ATS? Cheers!

Well, my first thought contained within your title:
"Since when is SOCIALISM aka communism ok for Democrats to push in the USA?"

My first thought is that you're disingenuous on seeking a non-partisan solution when you lay blame to one party.

My second thought from the body of your conversation:
"instead all I see nowadays is outrageous fake , misleading and predominantly Communist/Socialist narrative being portrayed in the MSM &also being push in the US education system with parents completely unawares!"

Outrageous - being fomented by a self-described Conservative President (whom all along I found to be pretty damned Liberal, especially with respect to the unwanted advances he makes on women)

Fake - Need I even go there? Typically politicians color the truth in various ways, but one always got the impression that in the end it was mostly with beneficial consequences in the end. As it stands now, blatant untruths and lies that are incredibly factualy without merit are being pushed out of this White House (again not Democratic White House) that a certain faction are eating up simply to fight some perceived problem.

Communist/Socialist - I think not only do you not understand the ideology behind socialism, equally you don't understand the wide gap between social programs and socialism/communism. Some reading may be in order.

My third thought from the body of your conversation:
"What happened to the Capitalist ideals that created this Country?"

Capitalist ideals that created this country - Capitalist ideals did not create this country, freedom from tyrannical rule and undue compensation to a monarchial government created this country. Capitalist ideals were part and parcel to the effects of that freedom.




Here endeth my thoughts.

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I'm confused here... so to be a liberal you embrace change. In fact, most change around the world has embraced libertarian and liberal mindset to bring for PROGRESS to a nation. Basically a socialist population that has not engulfed the governments to form 'communism'.

What you are saying is that some how liberal mindset is now evolving into progressiv-ism?

I think I am living in the twilight zone here, are you seriously just making up a political ideology just for the sake of attacking it?

Uh, no, I did not say that. It’s simple history. Maybe You are living in a twilight zone.

No, you just don't understand what progressivism really means. That's all.
You put some weird twist on the meaning to make it fit a narrative you see fit.

Liberalism ultimately, and literally means to be progressive, you cannot have progress unless you advocate liberal mindset. Good god, I feel like I am reading someone who posts on /pol/... ATS really has hit a low.

No, you’re confusing the word progressive and liberal. It’s ok, you’re just daft. You’ll figure it out.

I've seen zero corruption by this administration

You are insane, this is the most corrupt administration in American history.

Trump is funneling government money to his businesses, putting his children in positions of authority, putting lobbyists, bankers and political operatives all over the government, financial scams and illegal actions everywhere. Just his evil EPA chief alone has 11 ethics investigations ongoing.

originally posted by: strongfp

Liberalism ultimately, and literally means to be progressive, you cannot have progress unless you advocate liberal mindset. Good god, I feel like I am reading someone who posts on /pol/... ATS really has hit a low.

Methinks you use the word "literally" to liberally in your day to day.

Liberalism is a philosophy based on progress and the autonomy of the individual to stand up for the protection of political and civil liberties.

Conflating the word progress with liberal is folly, as even a conservative mindset wants to see progress, if not, we would have peaked at fire and the wheel.