The issue with atheism

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Woodcarver

What good would it do to talk to someone
who trys to explain animation with a molecule?

It is lunacy.

Unless you want to try'n explain your belief
that life doesn't have to come from life? Of
course extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence.
But if you can't do that it's okay.
You can still go on believe'n what you want.
But you can't say no one can explain their belief
to you. Because it didn't matter when they tried.

you never explain though. You just go on and on about how i won’t listen, when i have asked at least five times in this thread.

You think that telling me what you believe is the same as why you believe it. There is a not so subtle difference there. Now can you explain why you believe in supreme beings?

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Ruiner1978

Interesting interjection

I will never understand Randy's experience with whatever it was made him believe in a god, but I imagine he can understand that while I have so far never experienced such a thing in my life I remain a non-believer.
I'm cool with Randy and his faith, we just differ when it is presented as fact.
I keep an open mind, I just don't start blindly believing unknown people's testimonies.

...crap god though, I'd be an A list star on TV and social media if I was a god, I'd reel them in with miracles like back in the day, billions of followers my name trending like a bad boy.
Strange how miracles kinda stopped a couple of thousand years ago...did god die or something?

Great answer!

I'm not sure it's a case of blindly believing unknown people's testimonies though. It's personal experiences. Personal. Subjective.
You know what I mean?

Silent God?
God using social media? Lol
Interesting, got me thinking...


Gotta be following to hear the Tweets.

All i hear is people saying they have the answers and then when i ask what those answers are, they give me their beliefs, or they get mad and run away.

But Woodcarver! You don't want those answers anyway do you!!
You are not interested!
So why exactly are you asking!

Be honest with yourself.

That is what everyone keeps telling me. Usually right after i ask them?

Well it's obviously a "cast not pearls before swine" thing.

I think it is obviously that you people have no idea why you believe the things you do, other than it was what you were taught to believe.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Hammaraxx

Flash if someone says I don't believe life only
comes from life. Then they obviously believe
life can come from some where other than life.
You can't argue that is not a belief. Or that it
doesn't ignore the observable evidence. But I
don't get to ask for evidence because science
is biased.

God that's funnyl

Show me the observable evidence that life
can come from anywhere other than life.

Here is a list of ingredients that make a human. If you were to break a human down into its constituent parts. You would have separate piles of inanimate, non organic minerals.

To be as close as science will let us and in an elemental sense, the average adult male, 5'11", 167lbs, is composed of: water 35 liters, carbon 20kg, amonia 4 liters, lime 1.5kg phosphorus 800g, salt 250g, saltpeter 100g sulfur 80g, fluorine 7.5g, iron 5g, silicon 3g, and 15 other trace amounts of other elements.

Which of those things is alive?

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

I don't understand how this works, it seems like you lookup that feeling of being less/having someone that is better than you and that you must respect and don't dare to look with your head up.

I don't get it at all and i find it very hard to believe that God, in any form it exists, meant for things to be this way.

Worship to anything is evil and dumb, i've been atacked verbally by people who get all crazy mad if i even dare to question something about God, they get all violent and defensive

I have never been atacked by someone who just lives their life to the max without caring about what other people think or believe. there is no need if you just "are" and don't think all day about why or find a reason to feel less and like you have to ask for forgiveness just because you exist

i don't get it at all but oh well. the opening post doesn't seem right, i never thought or myself as a god or supreme being

i'm just here, like everyone else, regardless or religion or not

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Annee

A gift whats your answer same question?

What kind of answer is that?

What is Life exactly?

A gift? From whom?

If you respond God - - that is not a rational answer.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Ruiner1978

Interesting interjection

I will never understand Randy's experience with whatever it was made him believe in a god, but I imagine he can understand that while I have so far never experienced such a thing in my life I remain a non-believer.
I'm cool with Randy and his faith, we just differ when it is presented as fact.
I keep an open mind, I just don't start blindly believing unknown people's testimonies.

...crap god though, I'd be an A list star on TV and social media if I was a god, I'd reel them in with miracles like back in the day, billions of followers my name trending like a bad boy.
Strange how miracles kinda stopped a couple of thousand years ago...did god die or something?

Great answer!

I'm not sure it's a case of blindly believing unknown people's testimonies though. It's personal experiences. Personal. Subjective.
You know what I mean?

Silent God?
God using social media? Lol
Interesting, got me thinking...


Gotta be following to hear the Tweets.

All i hear is people saying they have the answers and then when i ask what those answers are, they give me their beliefs, or they get mad and run away.

But Woodcarver! You don't want those answers anyway do you!!
You are not interested!
So why exactly are you asking!

Be honest with yourself.

That is what everyone keeps telling me. Usually right after i ask them?

Well it's obviously a "cast not pearls before swine" thing.

I think it is obviously that you people have no idea why you believe the things you do, other than it was what you were taught to believe.

You people?
Lol once again Woodcarver, you are mistaken.
I was raised in the most unreligious environment you could imagine.

And I already know that that's exactly what you think. Your mind is already made up about other's reasonings. You are not actually interested, and are not asking out of wanting understanding.

This is transparent. You, you are transparent.


Try not to act so let down when people disengage with you. That false sense of achievement and victory you've been getting has got you all carried away with yourself.

originally posted by: WarriorMH
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Worship to anything is evil and dumb, i've been atacked verbally by people who get all crazy mad if i even dare to question something about God, they get all violent and defensive

Interesting point.
But on the flip side the exact same thing happens when Science is "questioned".

This is a trait of people in general, no matter what their beliefs.
I have tried and tested this many times over here in many threads.
Want proof and evidence? Just read the # here from a non-invested view point.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Ruiner1978

Interesting interjection

I will never understand Randy's experience with whatever it was made him believe in a god, but I imagine he can understand that while I have so far never experienced such a thing in my life I remain a non-believer.
I'm cool with Randy and his faith, we just differ when it is presented as fact.
I keep an open mind, I just don't start blindly believing unknown people's testimonies.

...crap god though, I'd be an A list star on TV and social media if I was a god, I'd reel them in with miracles like back in the day, billions of followers my name trending like a bad boy.
Strange how miracles kinda stopped a couple of thousand years ago...did god die or something?

Great answer!

I'm not sure it's a case of blindly believing unknown people's testimonies though. It's personal experiences. Personal. Subjective.
You know what I mean?

Silent God?
God using social media? Lol
Interesting, got me thinking...


Gotta be following to hear the Tweets.

All i hear is people saying they have the answers and then when i ask what those answers are, they give me their beliefs, or they get mad and run away.

But Woodcarver! You don't want those answers anyway do you!!
You are not interested!
So why exactly are you asking!

Be honest with yourself.

That is what everyone keeps telling me. Usually right after i ask them?

Well it's obviously a "cast not pearls before swine" thing.

I think it is obviously that you people have no idea why you believe the things you do, other than it was what you were taught to believe.

I wasn't brought up believing what I now believe woodie
What you said is about as dumb as saying all atheists have atheist kids and are only atheists because mum and dad said they should be

That's not smart, but in this topic you generally don't show your smarts
I wonder why your capacity for logic goes out the window in this forum

If one of you really wants to learn how stuff works, watch Kūmāré


Experiment, "religion" is an experience.

originally posted by: Hammaraxx

originally posted by: Hecate666
I am an atheist and I am also very spiritual.
... [SNIP]...
I blieve in myself, maybe I have a soul [maybe not, it remains to be seen at the end]. Nature might very well recycle data, what do I know but reincarnation may be possible.
... [SNIP]...
I am an Atheist!

Sorry to bring this up Hecate666, but you just described yourself as Agnostic not Atheist.

Not really, I totally believe that there is NO god, being spiritual does not involve any higher or any other being at all.

I could agree that there are maybe more developed beings [!] as in aliens or people in other dimensions but they have none of the characteristics that a theist god has [in fact they may be no better than us and I refuse to call them gods even if they existed. They would literally just be other beings]. I do not believe that there is a biblical god at all as it is described and believed in.
If they found out one day that what others call gods were merely technologically advanced beings, christians could not hijack this and suddenly say "Aha, this is what we meant all the time", because it is simply not.

There is no god and none will be found. That makes me an Atheist

a reply to: Hecate666

You know there could also be something like "ascended masters" no technology needed.

a reply to: Hecate666

I am sorry to have misunderstood you.
Please accept my apology.

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Ruiner1978

Interesting interjection

I will never understand Randy's experience with whatever it was made him believe in a god, but I imagine he can understand that while I have so far never experienced such a thing in my life I remain a non-believer.
I'm cool with Randy and his faith, we just differ when it is presented as fact.
I keep an open mind, I just don't start blindly believing unknown people's testimonies.

...crap god though, I'd be an A list star on TV and social media if I was a god, I'd reel them in with miracles like back in the day, billions of followers my name trending like a bad boy.
Strange how miracles kinda stopped a couple of thousand years ago...did god die or something?

Great answer!

I'm not sure it's a case of blindly believing unknown people's testimonies though. It's personal experiences. Personal. Subjective.
You know what I mean?

Silent God?
God using social media? Lol
Interesting, got me thinking...


Gotta be following to hear the Tweets.

All i hear is people saying they have the answers and then when i ask what those answers are, they give me their beliefs, or they get mad and run away.

But Woodcarver! You don't want those answers anyway do you!!
You are not interested!
So why exactly are you asking!

Be honest with yourself.

That is what everyone keeps telling me. Usually right after i ask them?

Well it's obviously a "cast not pearls before swine" thing.

I think it is obviously that you people have no idea why you believe the things you do, other than it was what you were taught to believe.

You people?
Lol once again Woodcarver, you are mistaken.
I was raised in the most unreligious environment you could imagine.

And I already know that that's exactly what you think. Your mind is already made up about other's reasonings. You are not actually interested, and are not asking out of wanting understanding.

This is transparent. You, you are transparent.


Try not to act so let down when people disengage with you. That false sense of achievement and victory you've been getting has got you all carried away with yourself.

it’s not about victory, it’s about exposing a lack of of reasoning. Plenty of people will see this conversation and see the lack of ability to explain their position. I would think if your beliefs are so strong, then it would be easy to explain the path of logic that lead you there.

I have been having this same discussion with raggedy ann and randy for years now, so there is quite a bit of history between us.

I have been asking the same questions for all this time. And still, nobody can logically explain why they believe in gods.

a reply to: Woodcarver

What exactly are your questions? Maybe I can?

If it is just "Why I believe in god?" (I paraphrased that on purpose, because I surely don't want to be put in one boat with other so called "believers"), that's pretty easy.
There was a time when I felt it, it is a purely subjective but indescribable beautiful feeling, as if you someday just wake up and everything makes more sense, is more beautiful and you truly understand that love is the only way forward.

The term "god" is without doubt tainted, by surpressing, self-righteous, angry people, who don't believe out of love but out of hate and fear. But you can't really blame that on god.

That of course won't convince you, but if you're truly curious there is an easy way for you to ask god to come to you,
Go out look at nature, open your eyes, see all the beauty, sit down beneath a tree, or next to a river, or whatever floats your boat and just
feel.




To ask someone to logically explain how good it feels to be connected to God, is just as silly as asking someone to feel what the 29th number of pi is.

originally posted by: Hecate666

originally posted by: Hammaraxx

originally posted by: Hecate666
I am an atheist and I am also very spiritual.
... [SNIP]...
I blieve in myself, maybe I have a soul [maybe not, it remains to be seen at the end]. Nature might very well recycle data, what do I know but reincarnation may be possible.
... [SNIP]...
I am an Atheist!

Sorry to bring this up Hecate666, but you just described yourself as Agnostic not Atheist.

Not really, I totally believe that there is NO god, being spiritual does not involve any higher or any other being at all.

I could agree that there are maybe more developed beings [!] as in aliens or people in other dimensions but they have none of the characteristics that a theist god has [in fact they may be no better than us and I refuse to call them gods even if they existed. They would literally just be other beings]. I do not believe that there is a biblical god at all as it is described and believed in.
If they found out one day that what others call gods were merely technologically advanced beings, christians could not hijack this and suddenly say "Aha, this is what we meant all the time", because it is simply not.

There is no god and none will be found. That makes me an Atheist

Not to pick on you, but i still don’t understand what you mean by spiritual?

I usually see people use this word to describe a sense of some kind of spirit that exists after you die. An eternal thing that is still You but in another existence/dimension/plane/ether.

I ask, because you claim to be an atheist, and by your description, you are, but, generally speaking, people who don’t believe in gods, get to that conclusion through a pragmatic inspection of the theories that we use to explain what we see in the world.

For example, i don’t believe in gods, because all of the examples put forth as claims for their existence, fall very short for potential possible realistic candidates. In other words, the stories aren’t believable.

I certainly do not know if we have some kind of spirit, but all of the examples i have seen, were clearly just people expressing their desire to be seen as a person of good character. And very often, it is a person who is trying to use that language to gain trust from other people.

How do you distinguish this word spirt/spiritual, from words like personality, character, mind, soul?

a reply to: Woodcarver
Yeah, I don't believe in souls either, same as ghosts, demons, goblins, dragons, elves, pixies, gods etc, basically anything unverifiable I don't believe in.
...not saying these things don't exist just I don't believe they do.

EDIT
In some ways I envy 'spiritual' people who believe in souls and afterlife because such belief comforts loss when grieving a lost loved one.
Me, the grief just hits like a train as I assume, that's it, they're gone, I have nothing to make me believe I'll ever see them again so the loss to me is always immediate, and painful.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Woodcarver

What exactly are your questions? Maybe I can?

If it is just "Why I believe in god?" (I paraphrased that on purpose, because I surely don't want to be put in one boat with other so called "believers"), that's pretty easy.
There was a time when I felt it, it is a purely subjective but indescribable beautiful feeling, as if you someday just wake up and everything makes more sense, is more beautiful and you truly understand that love is the only way forward.

The term "god" is without doubt tainted, by surpressing, self-righteous, angry people, who don't believe out of love but out of hate and fear. But you can't really blame that on god.

That of course won't convince you, but if you're truly curious there is an easy way for you to ask god to come to you,
Go out look at nature, open your eyes, see all the beauty, sit down beneath a tree, or next to a river, or whatever floats your boat and just
feel.



To ask someone to logically explain how good it feels to be connected to God, is just as silly as asking someone to feel what the 29th number of pi is.

Thank you for your reply. I know i come off a little harsh sometimes. But, i truly want to know what people think and how they got there. I will ask questions that you won’t like, but, please bear with me, and answer them as honest and as best as you can.

I think it is quite fair to ask people to describe the feeling they get when they describe what god/ spirituality is, because it is always described as a feeling. You are feeling it, you are describing it as a feeling. Usually an exuberantly good feeling, or a bad foreboding fear. So it seems to me, that this feeling exists on the extreme ends of the human emotional spectrum. Outside of normal average ranges of everyday hum drum experiences. Most likely, when you have “lost control” of your emotions.


You say to go outside and spend time in nature, and i do that more than most. I am full of awe at our world. That feeling you describe, i feel that when i am in tune with myself. When i am focused and making progress with myself and with my art. I have never needed to ascribe that feeling to a being or a spirit though. I feel the same things everyone else does. I just ascribe it to my physiology instead of an outside force.

Now if i told you to go outside and change the god you ascribe that feeling to, to yourself, and your mind and body, and all of it’s complicated interactions with itself and with the world, that would be the best explanation of my position.

People who believe in religious/spiritual explanations of the world, aren’t describing different experiences than i have had, they are just ascribing those feelings to something that has never been identified as existing.

My entire line of questioning is revolved around finding out how people come to the conclusion that the source of these feelings comes from outside of the body.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Woodcarver

Thanks

Yeah, I don't believe in souls either, same as ghosts, demons, goblins, dragons, elves, pixies, gods etc, basically anything unverifiable I don't believe in.
...not saying these things don't exist just I don't believe they do.

I like to think of these things in terms of percentages. We can’t say 100% that fairies and goblins don’t exist, but we can relegate some possible number that describes the very low possibility that they do exist. That number would look something like 0.00000001%. Sure it’s just a far flung guess, but that number is taken from a very reasonable position.





EDIT
In some ways I envy 'spiritual' people who believe in souls and afterlife because such belief comforts loss when grieving a lost loved one.
Me, the grief just hits like a train as I assume, that's it, they're gone, I have nothing to make me believe I'll ever see them again so the loss to me is always immediate, and painful.

I do not envy those who need to be comforted with stories. I’m certainly not the strongest individual, but i’ll take the hard truth over a comfortable lie any day. For any experience.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Ruiner1978

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Ruiner1978

Interesting interjection

I will never understand Randy's experience with whatever it was made him believe in a god, but I imagine he can understand that while I have so far never experienced such a thing in my life I remain a non-believer.
I'm cool with Randy and his faith, we just differ when it is presented as fact.
I keep an open mind, I just don't start blindly believing unknown people's testimonies.

...crap god though, I'd be an A list star on TV and social media if I was a god, I'd reel them in with miracles like back in the day, billions of followers my name trending like a bad boy.
Strange how miracles kinda stopped a couple of thousand years ago...did god die or something?

Great answer!

I'm not sure it's a case of blindly believing unknown people's testimonies though. It's personal experiences. Personal. Subjective.
You know what I mean?

Silent God?
God using social media? Lol
Interesting, got me thinking...


Gotta be following to hear the Tweets.

All i hear is people saying they have the answers and then when i ask what those answers are, they give me their beliefs, or they get mad and run away.

But Woodcarver! You don't want those answers anyway do you!!
You are not interested!
So why exactly are you asking!

Be honest with yourself.

That is what everyone keeps telling me. Usually right after i ask them?

Well it's obviously a "cast not pearls before swine" thing.

I think it is obviously that you people have no idea why you believe the things you do, other than it was what you were taught to believe.

I wasn't brought up believing what I now believe woodie
What you said is about as dumb as saying all atheists have atheist kids and are only atheists because mum and dad said they should be

That's not smart, but in this topic you generally don't show your smarts
I wonder why your capacity for logic goes out the window in this forum

Instead of slinging insults, you could be using this time to constructively formulate an explanation which logically lays out your position.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Lol, all children are atheists until someone teaches them to believe old stories.