The Serious 9/11 Arguments Compilation.

a reply to: Jesushere

So? How does any of that make it impossible for structural steel to lose strength when heated? Misshape when expanding, when contracting, or under different temperatures and stress?

If all you need is more steel, why bother with insulation? By code.

Fire collapse related is very likely with no evidence of planted charges?

Again,

What is it like to post video and have it show zero proof of planted charges?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Jesushere

So? How does any of that make it impossible for structural steel to lose strength when heated? Misshape when expanding, when contracting, or under different temperatures and stress?

If all you need is more steel, why bother with insulation? By code.

Fire collapse related collapse is very likely with no evidence of planted charges?

Again,

What is it like to post video and have it show zero proof of planted charges?

You ignoring what FEMA said they had in their possession a piece of steel that was corroded they speculated about this not proven. But just say they are right this was done 1000 degrees heat and they speculated the reason for the melting was sulphur as it was also found on the steel, thus reducing the boiling point of melting steel.

1300 Celsius without the sulphur will start to melting steel

With sulphur + 1000c heat, steel melts that's the FEMA theory anyways.

We have a genuine problem here as NIST claims no steel member was heated above 600c for more than 15 to 20 minutes. Fires move on and they burn out if they have no combustibles. That's why you see fires going out in some of the windows during the day and they spread out and move on to new target areas.

Steel loses half its strength at 500 to 600c. But that not what FEMA found they found a sample of WTC7 steel that was melted by 1000c heat.

If NIST is claiming there was no 1000c fire we have got an error? The steel could not be melted with 600c heat is impossible can't happen will never happen.

a reply to: Jesushere

Sad the only thing you can do is change the subject.

And please quote the NIST published reports where the collapse from WTC 1, 2 or 7 was caused by melted steel.

The collapse was initiated by a number of issues placing strain on columns and floor connections resulting in buckling of columns and breaking of floor connections.

Again,

What is it like to post video of WTC 7’s collapse and have it hold absolutely zero proof of planted charges.

originally posted by: Jesushere

This camera is about 100 ft closer to WTC7 than your camera. Would you mind pointing out the loud boom in this video. I'm having trouble finding it.

waypastvne I uploaded an MP3 to this site for you to play. It short but you hear the bang 1 second in when the reporter was talking!

vocaroo.com...

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: Jesushere

This camera is about 100 ft closer to WTC7 than your camera. Would you mind pointing out the loud boom in this video. I'm having trouble finding it.

I guess the sound of conversation was drowning out the supposed sound of a blast cutting steel columns? The required energy to serve a steel column which would result in a 130 to 140 dB audible blast.

And isn’t the claim of the truth movement the resistance of each column had to be removed floor by floor?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Jesushere

Sad the only thing you can do is change the subject.

And please quote the NIST published reports where the collapse from WTC 1, 2 or 7 was caused by melted steel.

The collapse was initiated by a number of issues placing strain on columns and floor connections resulting in buckling of columns and breaking of floor connections.

Again,

What is it like to post video of WTC 7’s collapse and have it hold absolutely zero proof of planted charges.

**SNIP**

FEMA WTC7 steel sample was melted by high temp oxidation. Their words, not mine.

FEMA even stated for this to have happened the steel was blasted by 1000 degree heat +sulphar. NIST is of the opinion no fire inside WTC7 heated any steel beam inside the building above 600c, for the girder was 500c.

Again why are you ignoring this finding and pretending it's not even relevant? NIST ignored FEMA conclusion.

a reply to: Jesushere

How hot did you say rubble the pile was? Enough to accelerate corrosions while the steel sat there for there months. But testing and thermal imaging you invoked shows no evidence of temperatures at which thermite burns at?

And would you specifically state what corrosion can only occur at 1000c? Again, chemicals cause corrosion. Heat only can accelerate corrosion.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Jesushere

How hot did you say rubble pile was? Enough to accelerate corrosions while the steel sat their for there months. But testing and thermal imaging you invoked shows no evidence of temperatures at which thermite burns at?

And would you specifically state what corrosion can only occur at 1000c? Again, chemicals cause corrosion. Heat only can accelerate corrosion.

WTC7 had the high temp of all the sites 727c 5 days after 9/11. What the temp was on day one of the event in this area we don't know.

Again false the steel was the first thing they removed that was done in the first month. A few scraps of steel here and there were probably still scattered around the sites.

There nothing in that WTC7 rubble that will burn at 1000c you have to be joking thinking this is even a remote possibility. What chemicals in the WTC7 rubble you just making up things now to satisfy your own beliefs? It clear building 7 was brought down intentionally. NIST could not even model the collapse correctly is just further proof the truthers are right. You believing in fantasy and you don't even seem to realise it. It truly amazing how NIST got away with this for 17 years.

a reply to: Jesushere

Again false the steel was the first thing they removed that was done in the first month. A few scraps of steel here and there were probably still scattered around the sites.

How, when it took three months to remove the whole pile? How could you remove just the metal in a pile of rubble over 1,400,000 tons of collapsed buildings.

Is it false they dug and inspected while they went. Stopping to recover personal remains, personal effects, and evidence. They loaded the steel and rubble on the trucks for further sorting at Fresh Kills. They did not just rush to dig out the steel, and only remove the steel. How would they get to the steel of the buildings packed into the below ground levels.

You are such a fake.

There nothing in that WTC7 rubble that will burn at 1000c you have to be joking

Glad you admit there was no thermite. Thermite burns at 4000F

And the better survey and calibrated equipment of NASA that would not be thrown off by open flame never showed the temps of the pile above 800C.

And

Please answer
How hot did you say rubble the pile was? Enough to accelerate corrosions while the steel sat there for there months. But testing and thermal imaging you invoked shows no evidence of temperatures at which thermite burns at?

And would you specifically state what corrosion can only occur at 1000c? Again, chemicals cause corrosion. Heat only can accelerate corrosion.

a reply to: Jesushere


Whatever happened at WTC, the damage observed was NOT caused by office fires, jetfuel and gravity. Of that there is no doubt.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Jesushere


Whatever happened at WTC, the damage observed was NOT caused by office fires, jetfuel and gravity. Of that there is no doubt.

Would you like to post an example from the video and audio evidence.

I am sure juseshere would again like to post the videos of WTC 7’s collapse where the sound of conversation is clearly heard above the sound of collapse? Where the collapse is initiated and people with their backs turned to WTC 7 had to be clued in the collapse was under way.

a reply to: Salander

Kinda odd you claim nuclear weapons, but the video shows no shaking of the camera from a shock wave? At least jedushere tried to make force the narrative to somewhat fit the facts with thermite?

God this is getting ridiculous.
There are a bunch of people with no college degree, whom have never examined the evidence in person, making conclusions.

A reply to: samkent

A few members offered in this thread some correctional facts regarding some very stubborn misinformation, still doing the rounds on many internet forums. It's however always the readers choice to believe the facts, or not.
After thorough contemplation by them, let's hope for the readers, that wisdom will win.

Let's now also dissect the incorrect, sometimes even nonsensical remarks in this thread, one by one.

It's an immense task, since there are so many of them. Let's see if I can bring myself to do them all, in due time.
Let me concentrate first on the ones which have not been adequately countered yet.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Page 43, neutronflux : There is no proof columns were cut to initiate collapse. All evidence attested to buckling of columns to initiate collapse. Not by heat. By being drawn out of geometry by contacting floor tresses.
edit on 6-9-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed
edit on 6-9-2018 by neutronflux because: Fixed more

Let's assume he meant contracting floor trusses. Since he used the correct words in the post linked to below.
By the way, neutronflux, you keep using the word detention instead of detonation in too many posts.
You can correct that from now on.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Neutronflux :

1. Quote where I said WTC 2 steel buckled because of heat. The outer columns buckled by inward bowing caused by contracting floor trusses that pulled on the outer vertical columns, drawing them inward.
-snip-
2. And there is no evidence steel columns melted.
Or there was missing steel outer columns or core columns missing because they melted away.

Regarding 2. : Long time already, proven misinformation. In other words, a fake argument.
NIST examines only 3 pieces of 2 central core columns out of the collapse initiation zones in both Twin Towers
One from WTC2 and 2 from WTC1
Thus, of course there was no evidence of ANYTHING regarding the vertical steel inside the crucial collapse initiating and burning floors of the Twin Towers, except those measly 3 pieces out of 4589 to be preserved pieces, which were however never preserved, but melted in Asia and elsewhere.
And for WTC7, NO STEEL AT ALL was ever preserved, except that "cheese grated" piece by FEMA, which disappeared, as far as I know by now.

NIST noted in NCSTAR 1-3 that the core columns recovered from floors where fires were known to have occurred represent 1 percent of the columns in those areas. NIST did not find any evidence that any of the recovered columns experienced temperatures in excess of 250 degrees Celsius.

NIST exaggerated enormously. They call that columns, but in fact it were 3 measly column PIECES.
And there were 4589 other vertical steel pieces from outer and inner core columns of the crucial burning floors to be examined.
Not to talk about all the horizontal steel pieces from all those floors (14 + 8)
That's sure as hell much less than 1 %, what they preserved.
That should have been 46 steel pieces, instead of those measly 3 pieces = 0.065 %.
This fact alone, that NIST could not find more than a measly 3 vertical steel pieces when they got their contract, is overwhelming evidence of a false flag operation for 9/11/2001. NOTE, thus after an exhausting investigation by the 9/11 Commission, and after the earliest one by FEMA.

James G. Quintiere, professor, Dept of Fire Protection Engineering, University of Maryland:
Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?

Gross error? A criminal act, that's it. Especially NIST should have adhered to well known crime scene investigation laws. Of which, lots of them they themselves wrote and passed to the Justice departments involved.

1. Quote where I said WTC 2 steel buckled because of heat. The outer columns buckled by inward bowing caused by contracting floor trusses that pulled on the outer vertical columns, drawing them inward.

Regarding 1. : Long time already, proven misinformation. In other words, a fake argument.
Surely after these many years passed, after that theory submerged in 2002. For examples of such proof :

The Truss Failure Theory. Fanciful Theory Doesn't Begin to Explain Total Collapse

Read also Professor Bazant his explanation, that theories about sagging trusses, caused by expanding and contracting trusses under heat, are impossible :

And it was certainly NOT sagging floor trusses that caused that inward bowing horizontal line of perimeter columns in both Twin Towers on 9/11.
OS-believers should read and try to comprehend what Prof. Bazant told us, in this post of mine. I'll make it easy for them and quote him :

Prof. Bažant et al., WTC Discussions Replies, page 8/11 (Journal page 921) : It was hypothesized that the lateral bowing of perimeter columns was caused mainly by a horizontal pull from steel trusses sagging because of differential thermal expansion.

However, this hypothesis is not credible. As simple calculations show, the temperature difference between the lower and upper flanges of a floor truss would have to exceed 1,000°C to produce a curvature that would shorten the span of a sagging floor truss by 52 in. (1.40 m.) Such a temperature difference is inconceivable. The differential thermal expansion must have been only a secondary triggering factor, which created a small initial imperfection in the overloaded columns, to be subsequently drastically magnified by creep buckling.

A professor in material science, who's by the way a vehement defender of the official story of 9/11, tells them that this sagging trusses idea, which they seem to be so utterly convinced about, is inconceivable, i.o.w., unthinkable.
Now go tell them, to stop mass-posting that clear misinformation about sagging floor trusses because of differential thermal expansion. Attach EVERY TIME you tell them, a link to this post as evidence for their constant misinformation.

And read the thorough explanation by Major_Tom how that inward bowing in reality could have occurred.
This is his theory, same as mine btw :
[url=http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=260&MMN_position=663:663]Explaining Inward Bowing via Core Failure.

www.sharpprintinginc.com...

Regarding 2. : Long time already, proven to be gone from any official US repository.
Thus, your remark could be read as nearly, but in fact ONLY partially right : "no evidence steel columns" melted.

Because there ARE LOTS and LOTS of "steel perimeter columns, or core columns missing.
4589 Steel column pieces in fact, just of the vertical steel parts alone, from all the crucial floors in both Twin Towers.
From crucial floors, of three on 9/11/2001 collapsed towers. Because strangely enough, no steel at all was preserved from WTC7 for a, surely to be expected at a later point in time, thorough investigation by academics and engineers.
And there is also no photographic column steel evidence saved from eventual reports, surely at least to be expected in this case of a huge crime scene. From the crucial, plane impacted, on fire, and collapse initiating floors.
But no, no physical, nor photographic, nor written evidence of vertical and horizontal steel from those crucial floors in the 3 collapsed towers, except a measly three pieces that prove nothing.
No buckling evidence, no explosive cutting evidence from those crucial floors, nothing at all to enforce the OS theory, nor the explosives theory. Nor any other theory. Three measly totally worthless pieces for any thorough 9/11 investigation. Detailed link follows.

And YES. Nearly right : because they melted away. But NOT on 9/11, but months later already, in China and India.
And IF there were PRESERVED, partially "melted columns", anywhere to find, we wouldn't have this 17 years long 9/11 discussion.

And you should be VERY UPSET as a law obeying US citizen, by the fact, that only 3 pieces of two vertical steel columns from a huge crime scene were saved.
Only these measly three steel pieces from both collapsed Twin towers their, especially crucial to any thorough crime investigation, fire engulfed and collapse initiating floors , are on record and physically present somewhere in the USA. Link with many details follows.
And thus note : NONE at ALL from WTC7.....

Just a quick in between for all these 9/11 forum posters, and their followers, who keep repeating their disbelief in explosives used on 9/11.
A lot of 9/11 related videos and information, about explosions on 9/11, collected by me over the last 17 years :

This is the best and longest video, nearly 2hrs 13 min. full of evidence of EXPLOSIONS on 9/11, and the YouTube link to it is in my first post, with all my explanations in that same post, and the next 2 lengthy explanatory ones by me.
Title : 9/11 WTC Explosive Eyewitness Evidence. (2:12:41 min)
www.youtube.com...



And here are the links to my extensive three explanatory posts for this long video, I extracted its video time stamps at the time-points where explosions occur, are shown or are mentioned :
www.abovetopsecret.com... first explanatory post, including that superb > 2 hrs video.
www.abovetopsecret.com... second explanatory post.
www.abovetopsecret.com... third explanatory post.

And this is a superb WTC 7 explosions video made by Achimspok, where he connects all the known explosions sounds to the FOIA freed NIST video repository of the collapse of WTC 7, in drawings and screenshots of the audio signals of two loud "Kha-Bbooms" just before the east penthouse began to sink away.
www.abovetopsecret.com... Read that post, and thus view the other demolition videos.
Title : WTC7 collapse sound & seismic spikes. (9:41 min)
www.youtube.com...



You should first view Achimspock's above video, and then have a damn good look at my 2 annotated WTC7 collapse seismograms :

files.abovetopsecret.com...




files.abovetopsecret.com...




And this is what you really need to know, so you can vote for the hopefully right candidate in any next US elections.
Title : 9/11 Conspiracy Solved: Names, Connections, & Details Exposed! (43:27 min) :

youtu.be...


At 5:20 / 43:27 minutes, you see the cover of the "Collateral Damage" book by E. P. Heidner, a former NSA analyst. An intelligent 9/11 analyst.
I advice the freshly arrived ATS 9/11 forum reader to SEARCH ATS by right-clicking on that little green magnifying glass in the right upper ATS-window corner, then click on "open link in a new tab", and then in that page, use these exact words and in between spaces for your search there : LaBTop E.P. Heidner

That WTC7 collapse really looked exactly as any YouTube video from a demolition job of a high rise.
I posted in this post www.abovetopsecret.com... the AFE Tower demolition, 116 m high, in Frankfurt, Germany, to compare it to.
Listen to the deep low explosions sounds there too, only those from this particular camera position. No high pitch sounds to hear.



Another one from the same building, the same deep sounds first, from the same camera, but now you hear first the high pitched sounds of the warning sirene too. And later on in that video, you hear higher pitched sounds than from the first camera, now however shot in the open air, by another camera.



This shows that different cameras and different positions, like on 9/11, can give totally different explosion sounds from the same demolition event.
That's why I posted this remark at the end of my above linked to post :

Whenever one of these OS Truster wolf-pack members pop-up again with all these repetitive remarks that "no explosions at the WTC complex were heard", post a link to this lengthy post of mine with all the evidence of EXPLOSIONS on 9/11, to stop their annoying -knowingly- LYING.

This is that link full of 9/11 explosion noises and visuals, just copy and paste it in your posting window, with f.ex. this text :

Stop your annoying endless falsehoods posting, of no-explosions on 9/11, here they are :
www.abovetopsecret.com...