The Evolution of Jesus in Early Christianity

a reply to: Akragon

Bart is a clever guy, but he wasn't there and what he says doesn't agree with those who were.

There are people who think the world is flat and others that deny the holocaust.

Bart's just another that tries to re-interpret the ancient narratives to fit their particular assumptions.

a reply to: chr0naut

We have no idea what the people who were there said lol...

That’s the point..

Jesus’s lifetime followers were poor uneducated Jews in gallalie..


The books of the Bible were written 30-150 years later in HIGHLY educated Greek..


Aka the Bible is not eye witness accounts.. obviously.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Jesus was executed for insurrection. Not claiming to be god..

The Romans didn’t care about your religion.. they cared about politics.


Though Christian dogma says it was for claiming to be the son of god. The Bible clearly states it was for claiming to be “the king of the Jews”.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Raggedyman

Jesus was executed for insurrection. Not claiming to be god..

The Romans didn’t care about your religion.. they cared about politics.


Though Christian dogma says it was for claiming to be the son of god. The Bible clearly states it was for claiming to be “the king of the Jews”.

Josh you are so ignorant it's embarrassing
When Pilot washed his hands, what do you think that symbolised, maybe he just hat KFC? Maybe?

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: chr0naut

We have no idea what the people who were there said lol...

That’s the point..

Jesus’s lifetime followers were poor uneducated Jews in gallalie..


The books of the Bible were written 30-150 years later in HIGHLY educated Greek..


Aka the Bible is not eye witness accounts.. obviously.

Doctors, tax collectors, fishermen you are so full of crap, many other people like soldiers, Pharisees and wealthy merchants

It's just not worth it, Josh, you are so dumb on this subject

a reply to: Raggedyman

A) WHY DID PILOT WASH HIS HANDS???

Pilot : so I hear you’ve been claiming to be the king of the Jews???

Jesus : my kingdom is not of this world.

Pilot:.....oh you mean that kinda king.. well ok then..

Then piolet goes to the crowd and asks if jesus can be pardoned.. BECAUSE HE DIDNT CARE ABOUT A SPIRITUAL KINGDOM!

Does it sound like pilot cared one iota about the “kingdom not of this world???

Nope. He only cared if he was claiming to be the worldly king of the Jews.. the Romans didn’t care who your gods were. They cared if you were stoking rebellions.


WHAT WAS WRITTEN AT THE TOP OF JESUS’s cross??

“King of the Jews”

Not

“The son of god”..


So now who has a childish view of that particular topic??

ANY history buff could have told you that.



That said I didn’t say jesus was stoking rebellions, me might have been. That is the primary requirement to join the pantheon of messiahs who freed the Jews from bondage afterall.

But the Romans didn’t crucify people for their religious beliefs. They did it for insurrection..



See that type of stuff is how the propagandists get you.. the truth is staring right in your face , but you believe the pool pit preacher instead.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Modern studies say less than 3% or gallalian Jews could read.. less than 1% could read and write.. IN ARAMEIC.


None were trained ed in Greek and Greek retoric..


There is only 1 Jewish author who wrote in Greek at the time. Josephus and he was educated by the Roman Emperor . So he was a VERY, VERY special case like 60+ years later.

The 20 odd followers jesus had in life were poor Jewish fisherman and farmers.. not Roman aristocrats trained in Greek.


They can tell the books were not written in arameic in the first place because the writing CANNOT be translated to arameic.

It has tons of phrases that wouldn’t work in arameic.


Just like if you hear someone talking in Spanish from America.. you will hear an English word every now and then because there are not Spanish words for everything in English..


I would be listening to my friends mother talking on the phone and it would be like ..

“Blah blah blah blah barbecue chicken blah blah blah”

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Pilat washed his hands because he could see Jesus was innocent of all charges, what's difficult to understand about that

Christians believe Jesus died because the Pharisees believed Jesus was a heretic breaking their laws
Had nothing to do with Rome, that's why Pilat washed his hands of the whole mess

a reply to: Raggedyman

Modern studies say less than 3% or gallalian Jews could read.. less than 1% could read and write.. IN ARAMEIC.


None were trained ed in Greek and Greek retoric..


There is only 1 Jewish author who wrote in Greek at the time. Josephus and he was educated by the Roman Emperor . So he was a VERY, VERY special case like 60+ years later.

The 20 odd followers jesus had in life were poor Jewish fisherman and farmers.. not Roman aristocrats trained in Greek.


They can tell the books were not written in arameic in the first place because the writing CANNOT be translated to arameic.

It has tons of phrases that wouldn’t work in arameic.


Just like if you hear someone talking in Spanish from America.. you will hear an English word every now and then because there are not Spanish words for everything in English..


I would be listening to my friends mother talking on the phone and it would be like ..

“Blah blah blah blah barbecue chicken blah blah blah”

a reply to: Raggedyman

A) that is what I said.. lol

Jesus answered that he don’t mean a worldly king..

BECAUSE THE CHARGE WAS INSURRECTION FOR CLAIMING TO BE THE KING OF THE JEWS.

The emperor chooses who is king off the Jews.. not some poor fisherman..

So then pilot decided he wasn’t a threat to Rome.. who cares what his spirituality was..


So you are saying piolet agreed he was the son of god???

If he was charged with claiming to be the son of god and pilot found him innocent. Wouldn’t that mean pilot believed he was the son of god????

See that is laughable..



B) depends on what gospel you read..

If you read mark none of that conversation with pilot happened.. Mark clearly blames the Romans for the crucifixion. Not the Jewish people.

Then 40 years later John’s gospel is written and the whole convo with pilot is added and the Jews are the bad guys..

Why??

Because when mark was written the majority of Christians were converted Jews. By the time John was written the majority were converted pagans.


Honestly I’m suprised we disagree about this point.. it is just obvious why he was crucified.

It literally says it at the top of the cross..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: howtonhawky

A) if he was adopted at the resurrection, then he is still the son of god..

B) those writings are decades to over a century later. AFTER they had time to figure out dogma.

C) it’s got noting to do with interpretation of the scripture. It is a historical question. On a OP that is talking about the historical account..


Your confusing a doctrinal question with a historical one.

If it’s a doctrine question then you have to address it by assuming it is all true. With a history question you do not make that assumption.

You are just posturing to try to confound the truth.

There is no real conversation to be had on the subject.

None that you would accept.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Josh, what was written at the top of the cross was an insult by the Romans at the Jews
You have no theological training, just a parrott repeating what so many believe

The bible was written some 2000 years ago and you read it like it was written yesterday, no comprehension to the nuances

Please, don't think you understand it, pretend you know
I studied, studying theology, you are a child in theology

Pilate didn't see Jesus as a threat to Rome so didn't care, that's why he washed his hands of the affair. Pilate didn't want Jesus killed, just scourged, the Jews, the religious wanted Jesus dead for claiming He was God
And no, you can't see that because you read the bible 2000 years after it was written, no comprehension of its nuances
Embarrassed for you

a reply to: Raggedyman

lol i highly doubt you've studied anything in your life...

They didn't want him dead for claiming to be God... he never made that claim... Ever

They wanted him dead for blasphemy... claiming to be the "son of God"

maybe you should actually read the story

Idk what to make of Christ and his school of thought anymore. On one extreme I see it as dogma, and on the other, a philosophy...but as to what?

The more I read about Plato thoughts on his own Pantheon, the more i actually see his ideas, or how common train of thought that came when worshipped their God's as thought form kind of apparent in N.t. It like Jesus was the Socrates of the Jews , and Plato John an the apostles, telling and written testaments of great being to be told... respectively anyway.

Let put it this way, think very hard on what Jesus would say, or do like one's soul depends on it? Even if it's wrong...but don't take it too heart, might make your brain multi task and there you will have a problem.

I mean they both drank from a cup and where given ever lasting life, even thought one dies the next moment as to one that does the next day.

a reply to: Akragon

Again we disagree, how bizarre
Ak, I don't care what you think of me
Think about that
Like why don't I care what you think of me, that's the question

I am an Molinist, not that you would know what that is, with smattering of Arminianism

You area gnostic or whatever, it's not important to me, what I do know is your hate, that's sad
I also know you can't stand my theology, I have a voice, I use it, that makes you a fundamentalist.
See, I can live, accept and understand your opinion, you hate mine, that's what a fundie is
Someone who hates others opinions

I and the Father are one

Bart Ehrman doesn't understand Jesus Christ.

a reply to: Raggedyman

According to the pool put preacher!

According to ANY scholar of the time period it was his charges. Just like thief and (can’t remember what the other one said) were written at the top of the other 2 guys.

It was his charges.. it doesn’t mean that he was guilty of that.. it doesn’t mean a group of the Jewish clergy didn’t trump up charges of him leading a rebellion.


Some one went to the Romans or the Romans heard there was this guy claiming to be the king of the Jews. Well the Romans picked who led the Jews from their POV. So they crucified him.


If jesus is the son of god he is absolutely a threat to Rome lol..

He was a threat to Rome because the Judains were constantly in rebellion. Which led to countless failed messiah figures arising. BECAUSE THE JEWS WERE EXPECTING A WARRIOR KING To free them from bondage.

So everytime the Jews were oppressed messiahs started commming out of the wood work.


Hypothetically, jesus was different though. While the other messiah figures were all rebellion leaders. He was preaching “love they Neighbor” and “ turn the other cheek”.

a reply to: Ove38

Says a guy who probably doesn’t know Greek.. doesn’t know arameic.. has never even read the entire bible ..Has no idea of the life and times historically of jesus and in fact only knows what his pool pit preacher and KJV has told him...

Lol

a reply to: Raggedyman

If you studied theology you would know that all the scholars agree he was crucified for insurrection.

a reply to: Akragon

I really like Erhman..
Do you believe Jesus Christ existed Ak?