Autism.Asbergers.ADHD spectrum

a reply to: skalla

I'm calm and civil so don't be shy lol

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I dont have to do something just because you say so. Read your own posts back to your self after taking a deep breath if you wish. How many autistic people do you know, and how have you verified their diagnosis?

What are the exact situations in which they have become violent? I need a full breakdown of the situation leading up to it and a dispassionate description of the actions of all parties involved.

Are other social or developmental conditions or outside factors at play?

I need full details, dont skimp

a reply to: skalla

Gosh, such a drama queen.

Essentially a double post, wifi issues.

I'm out, i was up for a discussion but there is non to be had.

Right, small background, I was a special needs teacher or as it was called back then, teaching ESN children (Educationally Sub Normal), yes its incredibly poor choice of words but this was the 70's, I worked with S grade children which stands for Severe, my daughter also has autistic traits and my nephew is on the autistic spectrum.

Whilst I do see a lot of these children with lone parents and sometimes the style in which the parents live could be a hell of a lot better for a child I have to say that Autism is present directly after birth but from what I've seen only becomes obvious once the child has passed certain level of infancy, ie its already there. Can social / family living standard affect a child well you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that children's social and mental growth can be severely impacted by poor parenting but autism by its nature is a lonely self centred issue so the children tend to already have their own path.

I have two autistic children next door to me of varying degree's, one clearly suffers from ADHD and the other low end spectrum stuff, sadly it is a single parent family backed up by a grandmother filling in for the missing male partner and the lack of a balanced parentage is affecting the older low end lad and he's gaining life experience from other children that he intermixes with. Its quite sad as he's partially a loner from the autism but he's looking for guidance and getting it from older kids who are taking advantage of his lower end learning skills.

The youngest child is a full on ADHD force of nature, life for this lad is always on volume 11, he's lacking boundaries from a single parent who works, the grandmother is too old to deal with his outbursts and again he's allowed to listen to stuff that the mother likes on the radio, recently he was singing a line to a song about coc aine usage with the words "I like the co co", apparently its all the rage but you have to take into account this lad is 4, yes 4....

The real issue here and what affects so may of these people is that the parent(s) refuse to get their children diagnosed because of shame to the family. I've done my level best to speak very nicely to the mother about what I've seen and what happens in the house and told her its not a stigma and some simple boundary lessons and a small amount of medication will benefit the child and her but they refuse to go down that route.

So does lack of parentage affect the growth of kids, depending on the social and monetary strata they live on, yes and lets not forget rich kids have issues too. But the difference here is that Autism, ADHD etc are preformed rewiring of the brain, whilst social issues at home will affect there's already a pathway defined in the child's head depending on the severity of the Autism.

Sometimes its not bad parenting but under researched choices that often get missed by medical professionals because of the numbers of patients and cases they may have.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

First of all, a couple of things...

OP...
If you are going to delude yourself into belief that you are informed enough, experienced enough, educated enough and morally well adjusted enough to make judgements about people who are suffering from certain conditions, it would be an idea to at least do a good job of pretending to be. That in mind, the word you were looking for in your title was Aspergers, not Asbergers.


And, as for the liberal soft handed BS, that you mention in your post, the approach that has been developed over the last few decades, was developed in response to the frankly appalling situation that many children with the conditions involved, had to put up with, and in some cases, proved fatal to them. Your prescription, a solid beating when behaviour is not acceptable, was the preferred treatment until very recently, resulting in children being beaten so regularly that it scarred them physically, for life, caused further disability, or in the worst cases, resulted in their deaths from either suicide or the frustration of the parent or guardian delivering the beating in question.

The current methodology for dealing with young people with Aspergers and other disorders on the spectrum, was created SPECIFICALLY, because a lack of understanding of the condition, combined with the frankly neanderthal approach of people who think as you do, was KILLING people with the condition. That is not all it did. It also kept many inspired, and actually very intelligent young people, from aspiring to become as educated as they could be, in the fields which interested them. As you cannot possibly be aware, given your attitude to these things, autism, being a spectrum of disorders, not a single faceted thing for which single solutions can EVER be forced to actually work, contains a plethora of different behaviour types, personality types, and levels of capacity. There are people with Aspergers who could run rings around the greatest scientists of our age, and there are people with Aspergers who find operating a kettle difficult, and everything in between. There are people with the condition who behave badly, and others who simply do not communicate at all, leave alone in negative, physical fashion. There are those who require very regular human contact, tactile input, and others who hate to be touched and could be sent into a catatonic trance by contact.

In short, there are no blanket responses to the fact of the existence of the spectrum, that will work for enough people on it to make ANY of the generalised, backward, regressive, information resistant TRIPE you have just delivered, worth pissing on, leave alone considering as an approach which might get results. And, just so we understand one another perfectly, I am the proud parent of a child who is on the spectrum, and if any ignoramus with an approach like you suggest goes after my child, that individual will be going home in a great many distinct pieces, over a period of months, with mailing tags from several different postcodes on the packages.

Get educated on the topic, then get back to us.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Well put
I've said all through this thread that I'm against corporal punishment. It didn't work on me as a child and I'm not on the spectrum.
I know a few people have been butt hurt by my OP, but perhaps it's a mixture of misinterpretation and my poor delivery of the message.

My main point essentially is that the overwhelming majority of functioning people on the spectrum are fully aware of self preservation so they don't attack people who will defend themselves. Or if they do and get a punch in the face they will have a tantrum in the corner and pick somebody else to attack.
It is why they attack their mothers not their brothers.
Support workers get attacked as well because all they can do is restrain. There is no fear of pain in correct restraining techniques, but there is fear of pain from a punch in the face.

Functioning people on the spectrum are not stupid and are able to control their violence if they fear the defensive response they may face.

originally posted by: Mclaneinc
Right, small background, I was a special needs teacher or as it was called back then, teaching ESN children (Educationally Sub Normal), yes its incredibly poor choice of words but this was the 70's

Oh my gosh that sounds awful these days, only words I guess but definitely poor choice of words!

Thanks for an interesting reply

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Functioning people on the spectrum...

Even this description fails to properly describe or differentiate between very different elements and ends of the spectrum. Lets ignore that this is autism we are talking about, and start thinking about mental illness or atypicality generally for a moment.

In order to be diagnosed with a mental illness or atypicality at all, it is necessary for the person who is being examined by a psychiatrist, neurologist, psychologist or other relevant, qualified person, to present with some behaviour or history thereof, which is not only outside the norm, but also over which they have no control. The very definition of mental illness, in a general sense, is a condition which causes a serious disorder in a persons behaviour or thinking. Tourette's syndrome, for example, cannot be controlled by the sufferer. No one would tell you, after watching someone in a full blown attack of it, that the individual concerned was in conscious control of their outburst, not in the least.

It is the same with many of the examples of violent behaviour in people with Aspergers. Even those most intelligent and capable persons with the condition, will find communication with certain people very difficult, particularly emotional communication. This necessarily means that at some stage, the things they cannot say, the things they cannot make clear, will eventually come to a boiling point, and in the wrong circumstances, could turn into some kind of meltdown, where they either attack themselves, lash out at someone else, or produce some other disruptive behaviour.

They are not being willfully violent, they are not acting out for kicks. They are frustrated by a world which, for all their potential intellect and capability, makes no bloody sense, populated by people whose motivations are entirely illogical, rife with double standards, and are no where near simple enough to be practically navigated, if ones mind is focused on anything other than the bland, boring thing that is surviving life at all. Eventually they snap under the pressure of the unanswered questions, the double standards, the failure of those around them to behave in ways they understand, the fact that the painting on the wall is "too orange"...

Lets give an example... my boy. He, along with several other behavioural traits, has a physical tic, associated with his Aspergers. He drums his fingers, unless his hands are busy, and if he cannot, say because someone grasps his hands to prevent it, he will wriggle and squirm, not because he is willful or obstinate, but because he NEEDS to move, cannot express why, and because of his inability to explain that he needs to free his hands to move them in the rhythm he is used to, he will simply try to free himself. Its the same with his tendency to sway side to side if he is stood in one place. Its intensely boring, and his brain does not allow him peace in that situation. The swaying provides him a situation where stimulus and perspective are always in flux, keeping his mind occupied on input.

These are not things he has any control over, and no amount of physical punishment would ever change that, and it won't change his less palatable responses to stimuli either.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
These are not things he has any control over, and no amount of physical punishment would ever change that, and it won't change his less palatable responses to stimuli either.

Interesting reply, thank you for sharing your experiences.
Regarding your last line (above) though, I've never advocated physical punishment, just the point that people with Aspergers learn quickly who not to punch if someone punches them back.
My own older brother used to attack my mother, but never our other older brothers, well he did once or twice but they punched him back in the face and he stopped. Our mother on the other hand would not hit him back so he continued attacking her, unless the brothers were around then he'd just do a tantrum in the corner.

I also mentioned previously my mates son years ago when he was a big strapping 15 year old punched me when I tried to stop him endangering himself. I punched him back in the face and he was never violent to me again, although he was still violent to his mother.
I am an uncle figure to him now, a mid twenties young man who regularly calls me if he needs help with anything.

So no, 'punishment' is not the theme of my OP, just equal defence which indicates to me that in many circumstances people on the spectrum are capable of controlling their violence if they know the person they are violent to will fight back.
Hence mothers get attacked but not brothers.

Does a floor believe it is a floor? Only when one forgets about the life down there when walking...

So when downtrodden a new label or flag of the mind in total pops up... hey I am neither left nor right brained but both are trying to function equally as intended; that is Autism... repression of that functioning does not lead to wholeness but a sort of split personality type; which already occurs in that magical thing called personal preference.

Politeness in company or as company is the best question to hold... people in "my" company either accept me or do not; either or neither is not my concern and I do not try to make it be. If I am in public or in private company; I obey the laws to the best of my ability(public) in private; I have the rights to say no thank you; or use the law when my universal rights are infringed as there honestly is "no such thing" as private property.

Sure one's own body, their speech, and mind have protections and doors for the reason or emotion and logic called outlook... if not interested in another's outlook; then politeness excuses oneself or simply walks away. Logic and ration come together in the middle of that mental evolution called REASON.

So being a reasonable person does not mean agreeable... like too much candy can sour or ruin an appetite, the same can be said for the company or presence of others... or the forced point of view thereof.

Saying Autism means people need a definition; not used to the sociological or psychological aspects; it gets called a disorder...

The difference in my opinion is like nature; like knowledge it takes a certain amount of time to fully blossom, grow, etc. and ample time should be made before condemnation or judgment to what is actually occuring; since greed is present but no gift in society; then the institutions set up or pre-existing to capitalize on that "new" phenomena or terminology; rush in and of course the old adage of that's what fools do?

A wait and see approach is best; and as the world turns the wheels on the bus go round and round.

a reply to: BEBOG

Thanks for the interesting reply.
Please forgive me for not fully understanding your wider point, but it was an interesting read.

I haven't read thru the whole thread but I'll add my experience:

I worked as a home health care provider which was responsible for moving severely traumatized individuals from a "state school" to a home setting when the "state school" was shut down. These individuals were abused most their life in the "state school" (I got access to there complete files) and were now in there old age. Most of my clients had a 2-3 yr old mental capacity. Most of the clients were docile ( probably learned behaviour from the abuse at the school or the drugs) except for one who would attack you if you upset him. After having a difficult time with him one night I called my house manager to help.

He came in with an authoritative tone and removed him to the bedroom. I don’t know exactly what happened but there was some scuffling in the bedroom and my manager came back out and said I wouldn't have any more problems with him. I recon he set him straight because I never had another problem with him. He explained that all new care providers for him get tested and told me to be more authoritative or otherwise I could get hurt.

Im not saying that what my manager did was right (or even lawful) but it sure did make living in the house easier for roommates and the care staff. So I feel there is some truth in what the op states, there is a line that is not so easy to identify between what is helpful for the individual and what is simply torture. Regrettably I fear these individuals have experienced the whole "spectrum" and I was not comfortable with the whole situation and had to change professions.

On another note, what really saddened me was the fact that these individuals were kept alive purely for profit. One of my clients was a multimillionaire with no clue of his vast wealth. I changed his diapers and cleaned zizz off the walls for $7.75 an hour.

originally posted by: Notably0ffbeat
Im not saying that what my manager did was right (or even lawful) but it sure did make living in the house easier for roommates and the care staff. So I feel there is some truth in what the op states, there is a line that is not so easy to identify between what is helpful for the individual and what is simply torture. Regrettably I fear these individuals have experienced the whole "spectrum" and I was not comfortable with the whole situation and had to change professions.

On another note, what really saddened me was the fact that these individuals were kept alive purely for profit. One of my clients was a multimillionaire with no clue of his vast wealth. I changed his diapers and cleaned zizz off the walls for $7.75 an hour.

Wow what a sad story, thanks for sharing. I can't condone professionals dishing out violence to control clients, but yes you are right, someone has to be seriously mentally ill to not understand self-preservation if they get a beating for using violence.
That's the point of the thread to be fair, it is why mothers get attacked and not brothers. People on the spectrum are not stupid, they know exactly who to lash out at, anyone who won't defend themselves, like mothers and support workers who can only use restraining techniques.

I have a few friends who are support workers, they get punched regularly, new bruises every day, I couldn't do their job because I'd punch whoever attacked me back in a heartbeat. I've done the conversion and their hourly wage in US$ varies between $14.50 to $17.90. You couldn't pay me enough to do that job though.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy


Think of the senses as a neural net; operating at different levels of awareness; some empty and some full... the autistic typically gets over loaded with too much input; the old zen phrase of empty your cup; means when one of the senses gets too full? Place your awareness elsewhere... one pointedness.

Police officers often do such a thing with a pen or other instrument when doing sobriety checks...

One can practice changing focus from one sense to another or nulling them; the goal in Buddhism is to completely empty all seven cups; the 8th is all pervasive space those internal and external exist as some sort of reflection of the whole... that all life particle mass or whatever flows through like a rivers or waves or vibrations.

The eighth truly is said not to exist as one empties and fills into another over time; so of course making the rounds of the senses helps empty and fill them with various attention awareness checks.

Awareness and awake is all Buddhism really is a point of view or focus not distorted by something else as direct reality... nothing has to be asked if it is real if it is known; however different levels of attention or awareness only seeks to find what it or they are attached to as existing or being.

Like in dreams all sorts of snippets and realities appear to work themselves out; however direct experience can only state what is real from unreal... like unicorns; they exist in various states as a reality; there is the imagination, the art, and of course some people when hearing words; see pictures and vice versa... so some are painting or drawing the world as another is narrating it.

Of course; when too many cups are filled; one wants to retreat and withdraw back into the shell or safe spot; the shell or safe spot is layers like an onion; tender everywhere except the layer of contact of earth... so over time peeling back the layers; it becomes like the matrix; the onion never existed... yet whatever that thing is one is cutting into can cause tears... as hey it is life too and calling it an onion could be wrong.

So the conglomerate in agreement of name to a form tries to agree that this is what that is... yet, when all of those cups are empty... it is always it whatever that it is and it can never be anything else other than what is simply; known as it is.

Pain is a concept the same way food for intellectual discussion that too binds and unbinds moment to moment; the attachment is individual as a whole and yet since knowledge tries to bring that to a whole; there is still gaps in that knowing or state of being.

So the whole becoming empty; is to empty all of them back out; over time this becomes a permanent state of being instead of practice. There are quite a few that already are aware of being in such states to varying degrees of awareness and can offer help and guidance. Of course if one attaches then that makes them even further from what is called simply letting go.

Varying degrees of that letting go; quick, fast, all of a sudden, slowly, gently, and with great ease.

Of course body, speech and mind are the three realms or world this takes place in; if there is speech in mind; where is this "mind" investigate that question by just sitting, standing or laying down. After the words drop away what is left? Body how does that body feel oh it was complaining the whole time... lol no it wasn't concept was, so one can gauge various states of that letting go by concept grasping... after the mind and body become silent from speech; then the "great mind" presents itself... lol that is just hearing as it is the voice of others or life itself... yet the elements also make up all of that life too at various rates of change... in binding and unbinding.

Impermanence; things arise and pass like the wind like the breath; where is that breath anchored... same investigation as the "mind".

Have fun live internally and externally and mind the locks as things open and close come and go as they always have.

a reply to: one4all

Totally agree he's a bully and that is that, my parents are foster carers and they are raising a 6ft 16 year old autistic boy at the moment if he got violent with me the last thing i would do would punch or threaten him, they have had numerous abusive kids and you could never hit them to show them who's boy

The original poster is a simple bully around vulnerable people who seems to think he's a big tough no one can mess with me kind of guy... Cringe

a reply to: theruthlessone

Oh behave, a bully picks on people, I just defend myself if someone hits me, no hall pass for anyone on the spectrum with me.
Don't wanna get punched? Don't punch me.
Same reason why mothers get punched but not brothers.
I would never wish to work in a care setting, mates of mine come home with bruises all the time because the service users simply don't fear formal restraint techniques.
But yeah be a drama queen with words like bully if you wish, water off a ducks back to me fella.

a reply to: theruthlessone


Best to direct them towards some sort of positive outlet like martial arts; so they can get that rage out of their system... it is a path of balance that is lacking the most.

In my opinion autism in it's varying degrees is an evolution; where right brain and left brain are trying to work as a whole equally in logic and ration to have full or complete reason beyond that whole left brain right brain split brain male female nonsense of roles in society...

It is an adjustment to fit or fill whatever role needed for total independence; instead of being dependent.

The quiet ones have those still waters that run deep in absorption; studying silently how and why things work with prior knowledge they already know without all the; blah blah blah from "adults".

The middle sort very personable and agreeable yet very gullible to those that are full of guile that can become a bad influence on them... those eventually become very very wise about mid life.

Which simply means nothing to be really learned; the younger sorts are typically called idiot savants; as because they quickly forget the knowledge they know when asked; because the information in their sponge gets twisted and especially in the English language collides as there are too many options to really communicate properly an answer as questions are typically some sort of hook with bait as an expectation.

Name a form and not everyone will agree in all the senses to what is agreeable; autistics know their bodies well enough after enough experience and do not need to be told what to do after a certain point; thats when the rage starts to build as others are impeding their interests of what they are learning or absorbing.

Of course hanging out with the wrong crowd; their guidance can become off track and well they then simply start learning from that track or rail.

Off that course others prejudge them by the company they keep instead of the child/adult: themself.