why all the hate of zionism?

would you agree that the United States had no right to invade the Confederacy?

That's comparing apples to oranges. Israel isn't a nation of millions that found itself divided by ideology as in the US Civil War.

I guess you could say that if the post-civil-war US decided to "settle" in Cuba, that'd be similar, but even then people would make arguements for such annexation saying the US was simply ensuring the safety of their 280+ million citizens. Who, exactly, is Israel's land-grab preserving the safety of? Certainly not the world. They also aren't helping the non-zionist secular jews, are they?

I am an American. Gene-wise, I'm Irish/Indian. I couldn't care less about the Hebrew god (to whom both muslims and jews lay claim), but if all this middle east religious nonsense flares up into a nuclear issue, I will be very angry at both jew and arab.

Well technically the Confederacy was a separate nation with its own military, its own government, its own leaders, etc.....Lincoln fought the Civil War because he wanted back want used to belong to the United States. I'm simply attempting to point out holes in your argument, which will simply make your argument stronger by you defending your argument. Good example with Cuba

Originally posted by smallpeeps

The Jews, by the way, as people with common history and religion who probably deserve a state more than any other ethnic group in the world

Do you have anything to state other than opinion? Common history and religion are what Native Americans had.

Rule of Law is what is at stake here and that means jews are subject to it also. You cannot take back land that was once yours. You remember a guy named Hitler right? He tried the same trick, saying that Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia were predominantly German. He was right; the Sudetenland had been settled by Germans for 600 years prior to WWI. It's the Versailles Treaty that created Czechoslovakia in the first place. [Educate Yourself Here]

He was not allowed to keep that land he had RIGHTLY taken. This was due to Rule of Law, which must reign supreme. What's the difference, oh wise one? Do you see jews as being above Rule of Law just like Hitler?

Wouldn't the Indian and Mexican people have a right to reclaim the western half of the U.S., by your own logic? Or maybe they could just have a small strip of the land, say, San Diego to Oceanside.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by smallpeeps]

Your words are based on wrong comparisons and made up logical connections which basically mean nothing.

You are right, religion and history is what native americans have. And even if we ignore the facts that, unlike the Jews, they do not seem to require a state, and that the USA isn't even slightly similar to the arabs who lived in palestine, even if we ignore all of those - do you find something wrong in the scenario that if the USA was under Russian mendate (given to it, lets say, by the UN) and native americans would sign a treaty, approved by the UN, that the Russia will help them create a small homeland within the borders of USA, then they will have every right to do so?

Would you support the US if they, having 50 other states, would start murdering those indians?

Well, Russia is Britain, the UN is Leage of Nations (Which is later the UN as well, since the UN too agreed to the construction of Israel), and the mendate/treaty is the 1922 Palestine Mendate, issued by the Leage of Nations.

About the Hitler thing - perhaps if Jews had a state similar to Germany and if several other similarities would have existed, perhaps then your words would have made some sense. But considering the facts - your whole example is meaningless, lacks solid similarity between the cases and ignores vital differences between them.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Who, exactly, is Israel's land-grab preserving the safety of? .

Their own, obviously. The sole act of immigration had probably saved hunderds of thousands of Jews from being slaughtered in death camps by nazi germany, which is dozens of times more than the whole number of palestinians killed during the past 100 years.


Oh and yes, the fact you chose to ignore all the other obvious holes in your claims (which I mentioned earlier) doesn't add much to your credibility.





[edit on 21/2/05 by Transc3ndent]

Originally posted by infinite

Well, how can Israel justify is reason for being based on the Torah?

???

We do not need the Tora to justify the State of Israel !

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel - Tel Aviv, 5 Iyar 5708, 14.5.1948:

....."On the 29th November, 1947,the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable".....


Rebekka

perhaps if Jews had a state similar to Germany

They DID have a state, and if you trace the roots of Zionism you'll see that. The Khazars totally accepted Judaism and became a Jewish state.

Please get the facts before speaking as an expert:

From en.wikipedia.org...

At some point in the last decades of the 8th century or the early 9th century, the Khazar royalty and nobility converted to Judaism, and part of the general population followed. Some researchers have suggested part of the reason for this mass conversion was political expediency to maintain a degree of neutrality: The Khazar empire was between growing populations; Muslims to the east and Christians to the west. Both religions recognized Judaism as a forebear and worthy of some respect. The exact date of the conversion is hotly contested. It may have occurred as early as 740 or as late as the mid 800's. Recently-discovered numismatic evidence suggests that Judaism was the established state religion by c. 830."

From en.wikipedia.org...

"Khazarland, or Khazaria, or Ard al-Khazar was an ancient country whose kingdom, the Khazaric khanate, was one of Eastern Europe's leading states between the 7th and 10th centuries."

So actually, if the Zionists wanted to re-establish their most recent actual claim to land, they would have settled in the eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, southern Russia, and Crimea.

Quote: "Too many Rich (& Powerful) Jews."

Although I don't think that the Torah should be used as a Document which is used to Define a State's Borders - the name of the Land now called Israel was also called "Judeah" in the Old Days as well as "Palestine"!

I still don't get it - these people have so much in common - why do they use their Religion in regards to Land & Property? They should get with the Modern World! These things should be based on
Legal Documents & Money & a *SECULAR Government*! Just because you see a piece of Land that you want (with people already living there BTW) - which you believe actually belongs to you because
"God said so" (yeah that’s an easy one to Prove) doesn't mean that you have a right to go there & Destroy those peoples Property & even kick them out of their Property! Can you Imagine this being done in France or England?


[edit on 21-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

perhaps if Jews had a state similar to Germany

They DID have a state, and if you trace the roots of Zionism you'll see that. The Khazars totally accepted Judaism and became a Jewish state.

Please get the facts before speaking as an expert:

From en.wikipedia.org...

At some point in the last decades of the 8th century or the early 9th century, the Khazar royalty and nobility converted to Judaism, and part of the general population followed. Some researchers have suggested part of the reason for this mass conversion was political expediency to maintain a degree of neutrality: The Khazar empire was between growing populations; Muslims to the east and Christians to the west. Both religions recognized Judaism as a forebear and worthy of some respect. The exact date of the conversion is hotly contested. It may have occurred as early as 740 or as late as the mid 800's. Recently-discovered numismatic evidence suggests that Judaism was the established state religion by c. 830."

From en.wikipedia.org...

"Khazarland, or Khazaria, or Ard al-Khazar was an ancient country whose kingdom, the Khazaric khanate, was one of Eastern Europe's leading states between the 7th and 10th centuries."

So actually, if the Zionists wanted to re-establish their most recent actual claim to land, they would have settled in the eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, southern Russia, and Crimea.

Really? the Jews had a state in the 1900's? That must be a new discovery. Have you got any wikipedia links about THAT?

With all the respect, its quite obvious that my words meant the Jews - unlike germany - didn't have a state when they started immigrating to Israel in modern times.

Do you seriously claim you didn't understood this trivial meaning?

Please, at least give *yourself* some respect... Talking about ME getting the facts...

Oh, by the way. I didn't quite understood your point. Your claim obviously wasn't dealing with why the Jews wanted Israel, and not Ukraine, as their state, but about the right the jews had in doing what they did. Why you suddenly come with this irrelevent issue, completely ignoring your previous claims or what I said about them, is definately beyond me.

If you are arguing just for the sake of arguing - changing claims each time the former is no longer relevent - please don't bother, there are much better things I can do with my time.


[edit on 21/2/05 by Transc3ndent]

Because, Transc3ndent, you are propagating falsehoods when you state that the jews did not have a state to which they could apply the nazi-logic of land-reclaimation to. They did have a national state circa 800 AD. If they wanted to take back their last national land, they should have used the post WWII era to settle in those Khazaric lands which is where any claim of heritage would be based.

Anyway, the fact you continue to evade and which I mentioned in my first post is that the world operates under Rule of Law, you cannot re-take land that was once yours. If people start doing that, Rule of Law will not last and Rule of Force becomes supreme. As I said earlier, the German people had settled Sudetenland for hundreds of years before it was taken from them, but it was Rule of Law that made their actions wrong. Why do the jews get a pass? Your statement about Jewish people having nowhere to go is similarly false and blanket-shaped. Jews have always been welcome as individuals in many countries.

While Hitler was in power, they did face hardships (no worse than the Soviet people faced), but the Balfour Declaration precedes all that anyway. There was Zionist collusion after WWI to take prime land from the arabs who had just helped win the war. Do you deny this?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

why do they use their Religion in regards to Land & Property?

New facts? Since when did UN Resolution 181 become a religion?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

a *SECULAR Government*!

huh?

The Jewish State of Israel has succeeded to maintain a vibrant and stable democracy with true free elections, a free press, freedom of religion, protection for individuals and minorities and other safeguards typical of a free society.

Israel is a parliamentary democracy consisting of legislative, executive and judicial branches.

haKnesset, Israel's parliament are 120 Israelis from all walks of life: Jews, Christian and Muslim Arabs, Druze, immigrants.... men and women.


Rebekka

smallpeeps, you are decisively ignoring my words and going in circles, in which case you can just reread what I already wrote.

You claimed that it is not right to take land which was once yours, and you gave the example of germany. I told you its a meaningless example because it lacks similarity. You told me that that like germany, the Jews had a state once, about 1000 years ago .

The Jews where people without their own state during the early 1900s and long before that. They were an ethnic group seeking independence.
Is that somehow similar to germany? Does the fact the Khazars converted to Judaism changes THIS obvious thing?!?

Even IF we would have choses to create a state in Ukraine, is it somehow relevent to your "Rule of Law" claim?
With all the respect, it doesn't even have the slightest connection.

And no, smallpeeps, no one wanted to TAKE land from the arabs, and actually it haven't even really happened until 1948, when those nice arabs chose to destroy us.


[edit on 21/2/05 by Transc3ndent]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Because, Transc3ndent, you are propagating falsehoods when you state that the jews did not have a state to which they could apply the nazi-logic of land-reclaimation to.

Transc3ndent is right. Jews DID not have a state during that time.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

you cannot re-take land that was once yours.

Did you ever heard of

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 - November 29, 1947 ?

or do you simply ignore the fact that the Jewish state of Israel has been declared according to international law?

Rebekka




[edit on 21-2-2005 by Riwka]

I've stated nothing but common sense in my posts and I am not a Nazi or even a republican. I am simply a world citizen wondering why we are headed toward WW3 just because a bunch of Hebrews claim to have the right to a god-forsaken scrap of land which was clearly held for centuries by arabs.

Since you avoid The Balfour Declaration (as good Zionists do) I will post it here for you (italics and bold mine):

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,

Arthur James Balfour

This was AFTER the arabs had fought on the side of the UK. They got screwed out of a good chunk of their coastline and one of their most holy cities. The Jews who immigrated would not trade with the arabs and they encouraged the eventual war which gave so-called 'legitimacy' to their UK-backed land-grab.

Now even if one assumes that the reason for this collusion was to create a military toe-hold in the mid-east, one would surely have to say that this war-policy and geopolitic has FAILED as it is 90 years later and we are facing world war three.

Zionism is some great plan to some humans, but to those of us who have no group affiliation, it means nothing. Groups of people can tell lies and they are still lies. If you promote Zionism, you promote World War Three. Trying to blame it on arabs is total horse****. What good will all of this Zionist nonsense do you once the mid-east is a nuclear wasteland? Or is YHWH's finger holding back the nuclear trigger in the same way He moved Sec. Balfour's pen?




[edit on 21-2-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by Riwka
The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel - Tel Aviv, 5 Iyar 5708, 14.5.1948:

....."On the 29th November, 1947,the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable".....


Rebekka

Because they gave into the Zionists, thats why the UN passed a resolution

once again we've lovst sight of the facts. As i have stated almost no one lived in palestine before the Jews started emigrating. Once the drained the swamps and made the land hospitable, people started to come. It has been the same story through the ages. They allow Jews to come to a place that nobody cares about and once they start to prosper, the Jews are suddenly kicked out. Dont give me any crap about Israel being so holy to muslims. During the Ottoman empire, Jews were aloud to live in Palestine because it wasn't considered important land. The holiest land was only aloud to be inhabited by Muslims.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Since you avoid The Balfour Declaration (as good Zionists do) I will post it here for you (italics and bold mine):

The Balfour Declaration is well known in Israel - but it has been the United Nations Resolution 181 and the

33 In favour votings of

Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.,

that legitimated the establishment of a Jewish State in Mandatory Palestine.

The Arab world did not want to build a state side by side to Israel.

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey and Yemen

voted against and immediately after the adoption of Resolution 181 (II), Arab delegates declared their opposition to partition and their determination to fight it by force if necessary.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

If you promote Zionism, you promote World War Three.

I do not think so.

Zionism is just the movement for the return of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.



Rebekka

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Riwka]

Quote: "New facts? Since when did UN Resolution 181 become a Religion?"

Oh please - give me a Break! The above UN Resolution clearly states that the new "Jewish State = Israel"! There was no "Land of Israel" before this Resolution! The land is called PALESTINE! "Israel" is a Modern State!

I feel kind of Bad for Sharon because although he has Common Sense - it is the Extremists that put the pressure on him!

I believe the problem lays in the Mis-Conception that the "Jews" = a Race - Judaism is a RELIGION! There are "Jews" of every Race present on Earth!
So now all of these people get to move to this new State called "Israel" (taken form the Hebraic Scriptures BTW) that was established by said UN?

I was watching Fox News Special Report w/ Brit Hume not 3 HOURS ago - they showed a
Religious Jew (Extremist) with a big Grin on his face holding up a sign which read:
We will NEVER SHARE the "*HOLY LAND*"!

Fascinating no? What makes the "Land Holy" - perhaps the Bible? Would you still say that
Religious Extremism on BOTH SIDES has nothing to do with this Never Ending Violent Conflict?


[edit on 21-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "New facts? Since when did UN Resolution 181 become a Religion?"

Oh please - give me a Break! The above UN Resolution clearly states that the new "Jewish State = Israel"!

On 11 May 1949, the Jewish State of Isarel joined the United Nations - what is your problem? Accepting Israel as a fact of life?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

The land is called PALESTINE!

Palestinians are Arabs vom everywhere around and Palestine has never been a state, again: what is your problem?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

I feel kind of Bad for Sharon because although he has Common Sense - it is the Extremists that put the pressure on him!

That is not true - I would suggest you read some Israel newspapers.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

I believe the problem lays in the Mis-Conception that the "Jews" = a Race

Jews are no race. There there is a religion called Judaism and Jews are a Nation or a People.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Would you still say that Religious Extremism on BOTH SIDES has nothing to do with this Never Ending Violent Conflict?

You will see the difference on July 21.

"On the day of the evacuation, we will get up and leave our homes without using force," Rabbi Shlomo Aviner.

Aviner, who is rabbi for the Beit El settlement, located north of Jerusalem, and head of the "Atarat Cohanim" Yeshiva in the Muslim quarter of the Old City, is even asking settlers not to use passive resistence, such as blocking roads, because at that stage it harms the public. (Yediot Ahronot)


Rebekka

[edit on 23-2-2005 by Riwka]

Quote: "Jews are no Race. There there is a Jeligion called Judaism and Jews are a Nation or a People."

Why don't you try actually reading my post again because that is what I said!

My problem is that Arab Moslems have rights too! Palestinians deserve their own State! They are not all Terrorists as the Media would have you believe! The Israelis are also not all Innocent Angels "God's Pure & Chosen People" & all. Israel has been known to commit acts of TERRORISM itself!