More Torture Made Public!!!!

www.boston.com...:.shtml

SAN DIEGO (AP) An Iraqi whose corpse was photographed with grinning U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib died under CIA interrogation while in a position condemned by human rights groups as torture suspended by his wrists, with his hands cuffed behind his back, according to reports reviewed by The Associated Press.

The death of the prisoner, Manadel al-Jamadi, became known last year when the Abu Ghraib prison scandal broke. The U.S. military said back then that the death had been ruled a homicide. But the exact circumstances under which the man died were not disclosed at the time.

The prisoner died in a position known as ''Palestinian hanging,'' the documents reviewed by The AP show. It is unclear whether that position was approved by the Bush administration for use in CIA interrogations.

The spy agency, which faces congressional scrutiny over its detention and interrogation of terror suspects at the Baghdad prison and elsewhere, declined to comment for this story, as did the Justice Department.

Al-Jamadi was one of the CIA's ''ghost'' detainees at Abu Ghraib prisoners being held secretly by the agency.

What in the hell!

There is no excuse for this. None at ALL!!

The Article goes on with some fairly graphic descriptions of what happened

His death in November 2003 became public with the release of photos of Abu Ghraib guards giving a thumbs-up over his bruised and puffy-faced corpse, which had been packed in ice. One of those guards was Pvt. Charles Graner, who last month received 10 years in a military prison for abusing detainees.

Al-Jamadi died in a prison shower room during about a half-hour of questioning, before interrogators could extract any information, according to the documents, which consist of statements from Army prison guards to investigators with the military and the CIA's Inspector General's office.

One Army guard, Sgt. Jeffery Frost, said the prisoner's arms were stretched behind him in a way he had never before seen. Frost told investigators he was surprised al-Jamadi's arms ''didn't pop out of their sockets,'' according to a summary of his interview.

Frost and other guards had been summoned to reposition al-Jamadi, who an interrogator said was not cooperating. As the guards released the shackles and lowered al-Jamadi, blood gushed from his mouth ''as if a faucet had been turned on,'' according to the interview summary.

The military pathologist who ruled the case a homicide found several broken ribs and concluded al-Jamadi died from pressure to the chest and difficulty breathing.

Al-Jamadi was brought naked below the waist to the prison with a CIA interrogator and translator. A green plastic bag covered his head, and plastic cuffs tightly bound his wrists. Guards dressed al-Jamadi in an orange jumpsuit, slapped on metal handcuffs and escorted him to the shower room, a common CIA interrogation spot.

There, the interrogator instructed guards to attach shackles from the prisoner's handcuffs to a barred window. That would let al-Jamadi stand without pain, but if he tried to lower himself, his arms would be stretched above and behind him.

The documents do not make clear what happened after guards left. After about a half-hour, the interrogator called for the guards to reposition the prisoner, who was slouching with his arms stretched behind him.

The interrogator told guards that al-Jamadi was ''playing possum'' faking it and then watched as guards struggled to get him on his feet. But the guards realized it was useless.

''After we found out he was dead, they were nervous,'' Spc. Dennis E. Stevanus said of the CIA interrogator and translator. ''They didn't know what the hell to do.''

This method is called "Strappado" and seems to be quote old.

www.shanmonster.com...

The strappado, also known as the pendulum, was one of the easiest and, therefore, one of the most common torture techniques. All one needed to set up a strappado was a sturdy rafter and a rope. The victim's wrists were bound behind her/his back, and the rope would be tossed over the beam. Then, the victim was repeatedly dropped from a height, so that her/his arms and shoulders would dislocate.

In some areas, it was customary to apply thumbscrews to the victim while she/he was on the strappado

Sigh.

More Links on the subject, Pick your poison...
msnbc.msn.com...
LATimes.com
www.sfgate.com.../n/a/2005/02/17/national/w161956S50.DTL
cnews.canoe.ca...
www.chron.com...


*Please do not use "All Caps" in the subject Line*



[edit on 17-2-2005 by TrickmastertricK]

The further coverage of just how the man died under interrogation is gruesome.

But there is a point of clarification. This is not "more" torture, it is coverage of the same torture, this time uncensored by any political interference prior to the 2004 election.

There will be those who deny that this was torture, and there will be those who deny that this was in any way authorised by the most senior officials in the criminal administration that orchestrated the invasion of Iraq.

[edit on 17-2-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

I dont care how much they try to sugarcoat it. Its Torture.

...leading to death.....

TORTURE, not an accident.

What a shame, but what do you expect when we support one of the best terrorist schools in the Americas, in their instructions manuals torture was one of the method taught to students.

I guess we are experts at it.

suspended by his wrists, with his hands cuffed behind his back, according to reports reviewed by The Associated Press.

What!

That is completeley unacceptable. And they killed this man? I don't care if he is the enemy, thats downright unamerican and unethical disgusting and repugnant.
Everyone involved in it should be brought up on murder charges and the death penalty should be sought. Every officer responsible for these men should be immeadiately decomissioned and dishonourably discharged and the ones responsible for the people that actually put him in that position should also be tried for murder and a death penalty should be sought. Everyone responsible for the command and operation of that prison should be brought up on charges and the commanding officer of the prison should also under go a court martial to strip him of any rank and dishonourably discharge him, and if he was involved in this in any way outside of stupidity and incompetence he too should be prosecuted under tribunal with the death penalty sought.

That kind of behaviour is absolutely outrageous and loathsome! Its unsettling enough that the US has to deal with actually being in a position where it has to twist the meaning of torture and use things like water boarding, let alone whatever the hell is being done in extreme emergency situations, and neverminding that the US has probably been sending prisoners be be tortured and interogated by the jordanians, but this? This is criminal. This is repulsive. This is non-deniable!

Nydan,

You did not read the entire post I don't think he was supposed to die, he had a purposed for being there.

This is not "more" torture, it is coverage of the same torture

Cripes, you're right. They had been saying that the stuff they withheld was too sick and 'sadistic' to even show anyone, and thats that stuff that the congress was shown, who knows if anything was hidden from them.

This is the begining of the release of that stuff, or the trickling of it into the public sphere, imagine whats comming.

This method of hanging, it often rips, slowly, the arms from the shoulder socket. Hussein used to use it quite a bit apparently.

And these monsters were prison guards in the US too! Pathetic.

honestly though, if you were the americans in Iraq, constantly facing a ghost of an enemy how do u interrogate?

They dont care about death, threats obviously dont work.

If their using inhumane tactics to get at us, we should be able to use inhumane tactics to get at them.
Eye for an Eye, tooth for a tooth

IF your in the game of death ' the military ' things are a bit different.

People back here in their snug beds, in their nice kitchens and lounges should shut up, and accept the world isnt a nice place, and # like this will happen as long as their is an enemy.

The government new about it, they knew it would happen.

Originally posted by marg6043
I don't think he was supposed to die,

I didn't think that he was supposed to die. Thats not the 'point' of torture. But its irrelevant. He died under out and out torture. Its inexcusable.

global disorder
how do u interrogate?

Within the law. They went beyond it and killed a man. They deserve punishment.

If their using inhumane tactics to get at us, we should be able to use inhumane tactics to get at them.

Nothing prevents the US from doing that, expect the US itself. THe military, government, and people, do not approve of this, have made it illegal, and will punish the people who did it. Being 'at war' is not a good enough excuse, and whinig about the enemy 'not fighting fair' does not justify it.

and # like this will happen as long as their is an enemy.

Illegal crimes like this will allways happen and must allways be prevented. No soldier has the right to do this and merely being a soldier is no excuse for this.

What makes me sad is no one cares and more and more it seems none of it matters. Despite everything Bush was relected the man behind the torture memos got promoted and the people behind this debacle are still in positions of power.

Whats worse people actually defend this behaviour...

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
honestly though, if you were the americans in Iraq, constantly facing a ghost of an enemy how do u interrogate?

They dont care about death, threats obviously dont work.

If their using inhumane tactics to get at us, we should be able to use inhumane tactics to get at them.
Eye for an Eye, tooth for a tooth

Ah, but there is a problem with that, the US are in their country, the people of Iraq did not ask for this situation nor could they have foreseen it. So what you may class as their 'inhumane tactics to get at us', they may see as the only way of fighting back.

But the US is an organized force that pre-meditated the invasion/occupation, so therefore were prepared and should have foreseen such events and obstacles, and handled them humanely.

There is no excuse.

Originally posted by Nygdan

global disorder
how do u interrogate?

Within the law. They went beyond it and killed a man. They deserve punishment.

Here, Here! We should be trying to set the example, not sink to the level of common terrorists...

I wonder if anyone will end up taking the fall for this, or if it will be blamed on a few more "bad apples"

Originally posted by boogyman
Whats worse people actually defend this behaviour...

I'd actually like to hear how the usual suspects would defend this.

Unfortunately they seem to be ignoring this thread...

You don't make a very good case against torture when you think that the people behind it should be put to death. Putting people behind bars isn't torture? We do this all the time, yet it's condoned by Americans. You can't say what you would or wouldn't do if you have never been in those types of situations. It's easy to say how disgusting and repulsive these methods are when you have never been in a situation where you need to extract as much information as possible to save others. If someone kidnapped your mother, told you they would kill her, you called the cops, the cops found the guy and released him because they didn't have anything on him, and you followed the guy to his place, what would you do when you found him? ask him nicely to tell you were your mother is? You may resort to methods you would have never thought you would ever do, such as torture. This is just a scenario of what might sway you to do something differently if put in a situation like that. Now take that scenario, and add suicide bombers, beheading, rounds coming down range and multiply it by 10. If you knew that you could get information out of the suspect, would you do it to save others lives even though it meant becoming the monster? I would.

Originally posted by lost1
You don't make a very good case against torture when you think that the people behind it should be put to death. Putting people behind bars isn't torture? We do this all the time, yet it's condoned by Americans.

No, we have laws preventing cruel and unusual punishment (but, i doubt anyone cares about them anymore really..), and the methods used for execution are not designed to cause excessive amounts of pain. Just look at lethal injection or the electric chair. You cannot even compare that to the sort of torture that has gone on in Iraq and Gitmo.

Well I think that it is sad that they had to do this, but before passing judgement I would like to know the details of what the man knew and whose life was a stake....

Reason would lead one to believe that he held valuable information and the truth serum did not work.

So you are left with 3 choices

(1) Torture him to within an inch of his life to get the info.

(2) Slap him on the wrist and let him go if he promises to be a good boy

(2b) Let him imigrate to the United States so the Liberals can have one more voter.

(3) Just shoot the SOB and hope for the best without the needed intel.





Now, if my men are in danger, and these SOB's are beheading women, and killing children left and right with car bombs ..................


Do you know what my choice would be?

[edit on 18-2-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by lost1
It's easy to say how disgusting and repulsive these methods are when you have never been in a situation where you need to extract as much information as possible to save others.

Well the US put itself in that situation so thats no excuse... Im looking forward to how they going to explain away this, it seems like torture is not a rare thing but the standard way to treat the prisoners.

It was Ghandi who said 'An eye for an eye will leave the world blind', I for one believe this...
Does any one else agree?

Originally posted by edsinger
(1) Torture him to within an inch of his life to get the info.

(2) Slap him on the wrist and let him go if he promises to be a good boy

(2b) Let him imigrate to the United States so the Liberals can have one more voter.

(3) Just shoot the SOB and hope for the best without the needed intel.

Wow. Now that you lay it out that way, torture really is the best option! (this is sarcasm)

Now, if my men are in danger, and these SOB's are beheading women, and killing children left and right with car bombs ..................


Do you know what my choice would be?

[edit on 18-2-2005 by edsinger]

Then you should NOT be shocked or angered when these tactics are inturn used against any captured US Troops.

However, i know you or any of the other Bush a**kissers will be the first to scream bloody murder when our troops are mistreated.

Since you've got family in the military i find it surprising that you're so willing to support torture when it will only make it easier for the opposition to torture your loved ones if they are captured.

It's called setting the example Ed. If we are the better nation, then we should set the example by NOT sinking to the level of a common terrorist.

I USA is going to liberate Iraq and make it a democracy it should lead by example now they have just taken over Saddams place, if you want the Iraqi people to respect its fellow man give them a reason to do so. US will never win the hearts of the Iraqis if stuff like this keep happening.