US Would Fight Without Air Support for Weeks if War With Russia Began

a reply to: pravdaseeker

The US will just patiently dismantled the defense system with cruise missiles. Then what are the going to Do?

originally posted by: mkultra11
a reply to: pravdaseeker

The US will just patiently dismantled the defense system with cruise missiles. Then what are the going to Do?

And droan's there designed to work rogether. Only pilots to risk with first strike would be jammers to coordinate droans. US is all about integration and data collection even droan's data will be shared with pilots.

a reply to: TwistedPsycho

If European nations had more than token air forces sure...

And if those air forces weren't in frighteningly bad shape. Take for example Germany whose air fleet is mostly unflyable right now.

a reply to: spy66

A well known secret about jammers is that they are vulnerable to being "jammed". By jammed I mean shot to pieces by missiles and artillery. By the very nature of their operation they are broadly announcing their precise location.

So those units would be the first targeted in any real war.

a reply to: burgerbuddy


It's all BS .If one part of the infra structure was taken down, like the National Grid, The rioting within the western countries would require all troops to leave the front to keep law and order at home. Just one attack on home soil would be enough, Simply because all the Wars going on are illegal wars, driven for profit, that's why you have to search to even find out if Israel is bombing Syria. It was never a war on terrorism it was a war against the people finding out what has been going on in their name. General Wesley Clark let the cat out of the bag years ago. Like the man said "If they find out what we have done we would hang" That about sums it up.
Remember that joke about the Vet? " When they were firing at me I got so scared, I threw off my helmet dropped my gun and ran to the back so far I bumped into a General"

Here's what's going on. As if we didn't know but it puts Yemen into the mix.

Russia is a threat locally to its neighbors and can effectively shoot at 4th gen fighters if no jamming capabilities in the area Which would most likely not be in area near russian borders. But one b2 loaded with jdams can take out several dozen targets.would not need to take out launchers just comand and control units

Let's face it.

The minute secret high tech shiz is unleashed ...

Make your lasts post memorable !

a reply to: roguetechie

If European nations had more than token air forces sure... And if those air forces weren't in frighteningly bad shape

Hitler had the same thought in 1940.

The RAF taught him no to take anything for granted.

a reply to: pravdaseeker

Just like the Germans did in Normandy 1944, look what happened to them.

a reply to: alldaylong

You're so wrong it's actually pathetic.

England was crawling with very capable grass strip launched spits and mosquitoes at the start of BOB.

And EVEN THEN they were within something like 5 days of losing their air force entirely in the opening stages of the BOB...

BUT

The luftwaffe was also getting absolutely shredded, effectively losing permanently every single air crew that went down unless they could get within visual distance of the coast of Vichy France in an area where recovery was feasible.

At this point Hitler himself ordered two absolutely disastrous things.

1. Bomber escorts were ordered to maintain close escort

2. The luftwaffe was pulled off attacking air fields, control nodes, and et cetera and ordered the cities attacked instead.

The BOB was lost because of THAT!!

So...

Your example absolutely sucks.

Britian had SEVERAL THOUSAND combat aircraft, all very much operational...

So how pray tell does that "example" in any way apply to say Germany which currently has something like 5 eurofighters in flyable condition?

...

Wait...

IT DOESN'T

originally posted by: roguetechie
England was crawling with very capable grass strip launched spits and mosquitoes at the start of BOB.

No DH Mosquitoes at the Battle of Britain I am afraid. The most numerous British fighter was the Hurricane.

The Battle of Britain is a bit more complicated than you paint it, but the thing that made victory possible was Chain Home. Happy to take that as a discussion in another OP.

Air superiority in modern warfare is vital, even if that means neither side has superiority i.e. an advantage over the other. In the hypothetical situation of a war, as per OP, preservation of one's air assets (which would be irreplaceable) would be pretty high priority, which is why there would be every effort to neutralise the opponents ability to shoot your aircraft down. The winner would be the side the with most cruise missiles, special forces, stand off munitions, intel and battlefield awareness from afar. That would not be Russia, if all things being equal.

a reply to: roguetechie

What the bleedin hell are you waffling on about? Did you actually READ what i stated ? Here it is again.

Hitler had the same thought in 1940. The RAF taught him no to take anything for granted.

And here is what backs up my claim.

Not only did he overestimate the Luftwaffe's potential, he underestimated the strategic intelligence of his opposition.

www.rafmuseum.org.uk...

But the Germans underestimated the RAF and this, coupled with some serious miscalculations, would prove to be their undoing in the battle for Britain’s skies.

www.historyhit.com...

Next time read it before you get you knickers in a twist.

a reply to: alldaylong

And read what i said before you act like you have a counterpoint...

If y'all don't have FUNCTIONAL AIRCRAFT you can get off the runway... You're not stopping the next hitler who decides to use England as one big bombing range.

Western Air Forces are in scary bad shape (yes including us bloody Americans!)

I was pointing out straight up that the BOB win is an extremely flawed scenario to compare the current situation to.

Beyond that, resting on our laurels because we've smashed out all comers when it really counted up until now is fatally foolish.

Btw comparisons of any potential modern conflict scenario with world war 2 is inevitably going to be fatally flawed just on the radically different balance of industrial power, massively increased lead times needed to ensure adequate stocks of weapons vehicles aircraft and ships, and our complete and total inability to spin up the industrial juggernauts we once were without a 2 decade headstart before hostilities commence!

Your example is fundamentally flawed on every possible level basically.

a reply to: paraphi

The hurricanes and spits were plenty though, especially because of chain home as you said as well as that whole hitler making his two big mistakes which bled the luftwaffe white and let you guys keep putting up squadron plus simultaneous grass strip launches.

Still it was a very close run thing, and entirely dependent upon a strategic depth and industrial situation which just plain no longer exists!

There is no massive industrial might to repurpose anymore, and even if there was modern weapons production cannot essentially be pushed to 1500% plus where it was in 1939 by 1941 like we did last time...

It just can't happen.

Actually, the situation in the west is far more dire than is being publicly talked about. The information is out there about how screwed blued and tattooed we truly are, but no one is going to hand it to you much less actively and willingly bring it to your attention!

There's multiple whole classes of explosives which are very much needed vital and have no suitable substitutes even on the horizon which we're currently burning through our usable stocks of (gathered from basically cracking expired munitions and salvaging every gram we can currently) at truly alarming rates!

At least one of which is less than 7 years from being totally depleted while restarting production or finding a replacement is AT BEST 15-20 YEARS OUT!

Make no mistake, certain people are raising the alarm for very good reasons.

Unfortunately, when you actually drill down and find the good reasons you very quickly understand why said good reasons aren't being talked about on tv!

That extremely rapid chicom buildup looks a bit less friendly now doesn't it?

It should!

Because truthfully, the projections I've seen about when western defense infrastructure engineering capability and production capacity are going to botttom out lines up ever so nicely with when china will be at essentially peak modernization and force density.

There's people out there looking to roll us like the loud, ineffectual, and largely impotent drunks we've become as western first world nations whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

a reply to: roguetechie

You just don't understand what my point was do you?

You wrote this

If European nations had more than token air forces sure... And if those air forces weren't in frighteningly bad shape

i replied with this.

Hitler had the same thought in 1940. The RAF taught him no to take anything for granted.

Ok, it was Goering who had the thought and not Hitler. That was my mistake, However Goering thought this.

Luftwaffe commander Hermann Goering initially believed he would easily sweep the RAF aside in just a few days,

www.history.com...

My point was you were making assumptions ( just as Goering did ) that are not always the actual case.

Now do you understand?

a reply to: alldaylong

No i Understood exactly what you were saying and getting at... Your example just sucks terribly because they're not in any way comparable situations.

Nothing is nothing, and that's about what Europe has to counter inbound hostile aerial threats!

Especially when you consider that trump is pretty much guaranteed another 4 years and probably already woulda rolled our military out of Europe already had he not needed the Pentagon mafia so much up to now.

Situations change bro...

Never count on things staying static and highly in your favor forever

P.s. Goering made this statement because he didn't believe britian had the WILL to fight, not because she lacked the means to do so. Currently Europe very much lacks the MEANS... THAT, is what you're missing!!

No amount of willpower stops air strikes if you don't have serviceable airframes, missiles to hang, and pilots who are current and within the proficiency curve!

Thus... Your example still sucks

Edit to add: and we Americans ARE NOT YOUR MEANS!!

I hate to say it but Europe and the Commonwealth should not count on us.

While Germany may have only four working Typhoons (to their shame), Europe - including the UK - is actually quite well armed. Its collective defence spending is significantly larger than Russia's, for example. Russia would be outmatched in a conventional war with nations in Western Europe, at sea, in the air and on land.

The Russians would lose such a war, know it and don't intend to fight it. The current russian doctrine allows for first use of nukes in response to large scale conventional aggression. The lack of air cover would be the least of anyone's concerns.

a reply to: pravdaseeker

The Planes are being Built , but the New Men who Will Pilot them Need to be Trained . Meanwhile , A.I. Drones Can Handle the Challenge , but Not for Long .