Race colorblindness vs Race consciousness.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Is milk racist?

Sounds like a silly question however lactose intolerance is one of many actual examples of differences in race.
milk.procon.org...

Do we just ignore this because it's inconvenient?

Lactose intolerance is genetically determined, not racially determined. Genes come from parents, not races.

Isn't the definition of race the genetic differences caused over time due to environmental factors?
Certain cultures took a while to be able to actually process milk and some cultures never had to.

There's also various differences between races which doctors need to be aware of.

To deny race is to deny evolution.

There are many definitions, which is also a problem.

No, to deny race is to deny biologically meaningless and blurred taxonomies, folk science, and essentialism.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I get where you are coming from now.
If I were to class Denisovans and Neandertals as different races then I would agree with you 100%.

If that's what race is then there is no comparison.

Perhaps I shouldn't consider differences as racial but rather tribal.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

FOr the most part, classification of race (as we know now) had more to do with justifying imperialism.

There are obvious and very general regional differences (like you get darker the closer to the equator you get, in general). But much of it is something that can change over a generation or two, as much of it results from epigenetic more than genetics. A somewhat sublime, but very relevant difference.

Genetically we are pretty much all the same. How those genes end up expressing relies more on epigenetics (which relies more on environment).

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Yeah, I don't disagree that the differences are minor.

I don't think the racism used to justify imperialism is race as we view it today however.
Neandertal's and Denisovan's are said to be either a species or subspecies of homo sapiens and that is how the different races were viewed back then.

No one credible now is saying that all the races don't fall under the same umbrella of homo sapiens sapiens.

But let's say I adopt your definitions and we ban the word race today.
What's to stop hatred because of haplogroups or differences in epigenetics?

I think it's easier just to use the term race and explain how the differences arose.
It's really hard to justify hatred of a group because of the historical vitamin D content of their diets.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

If it didn't carry so much baggage, i'd care not what words were used.

And I think that were humanity not wandering near and far for the 150k years before we started to create settlements, the whole thing would make more sense. But we didn't really settle into areas until the neolithic, instead roving like nomads. There just hasn't been much chance for genetic isolation to happen beyond a few thousand years at a time.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Fair enough.

I just think there's better solutions to racism than a thesaurus.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Fair enough.

I just think there's better solutions to racism than a thesaurus.

What’s a better solution to banishing the spectre of racism than banishing the idea of race?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I think the result is going to be too uncomfortable for people who tend to lie to themselves. Cognitive dissonance, etc.

If you remove the notion of race, then people will have their discriminations laid bare.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I think the better solution is understanding and accepting how racism arose.
I believe that it's down to our territorial and tribalistic nature.

Chimps do similar things without needing the notion of race.

Groups different to you will have different customs, different tolerances to diseases, different diets etc. etc.
It makes perfect sense evolutionary to be wary of those that are different.
Anyone who claims that they do not discriminate seem to be claiming that they have overcome their biology.

I want a world where people can be honest about their racism and able to notice it and confront it.
Richard Pryor talks about it being cold and windy in Chicago and when it's really bad he can hide from the wind with a klan member... "It's too cold to be hatin N****s today". (I've butchered that I know).

That's how you deal with racism. Not by denying it exists but by exposing the inconsistencies in it.

Of course sometimes being wary of those that are different isn't flawed.
Should an American gay man roam around Fallujah? Is he a bigot if he doesn't?

bigfatfurrytexan is right.
People tend to lie to themselves to avoid uncomfortable truths.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Is milk racist?

Sounds like a silly question however lactose intolerance is one of many actual examples of differences in race.
milk.procon.org...

Do we just ignore this because it's inconvenient?

How about sickle cell and booze intolerance?

I'm not sure about what this thread is about, sorry Les, my fail.

I was asked the other day if I was jewish by an Asian guy. lol!! Chinese I assumed.

Told him I was Mexican. Tru story. He was the make-up artist for the movie we were shooting.

I get that question a few times and when I say American, I get a funny look.

It's almost as if I don't look American or they can't tell I have a boston accent.

So I bounce between Italian (which is my heritage) and Mexican, depending on my mood.

Seems to satisfy them.

Jewish was a first tho.

That's me in my Avi.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

How about sickle cell and booze intolerance? 

Sickle cell is also found in southern Europe and booze intolerance a bunch of folks from desperate parts of the globe are booze intolerant.

The one thing that I can see on this is from my experience and that is that color blindness really does work.

If one serves in the US military, one of the things that is pushed and stressed and enforced is color blindness. No matter who it is, no matter where they are from, or anything. The people who are in the military are military persons and that is it.

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
How about sickle cell and booze intolerance?

I'm not sure about what this thread is about, sorry Les, my fail.

Yep, there's plenty of examples where differences can be seen.
I think the OP's point is that if we stopped using the term race and focused on the individual we could solve racism.
By removing a superficial layer of judgement we will understand the individual better and society will improve.

It's a little too Orwellian for my liking.

I'm trying to pick your race from the pic and I've gotta say I'm struggling.
All I can think is like a warlock from those King's Quest games.
I guess that would make you from Daventry.

And it's that sort of profiling which we can't honestly deny that we do.
Is it irrational and wrong to be scared of your dark magic? YES!
But we should recognise the absurdity of it and not run away from it.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

I’m not denying that racism exist. It does. What I am saying is that the taxonomies used to perpetuate racism is the problem. People are racist because they believe in race. Everything from apartheid, to eugenics, to Nazism stems from this belief. In fact, it’s mental apartheid, mental segregation, and it leads inevitably to real apartheid, real segregation.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
The one thing that I can see on this is from my experience and that is that color blindness really does work.

If one serves in the US military, one of the things that is pushed and stressed and enforced is color blindness. No matter who it is, no matter where they are from, or anything. The people who are in the military are military persons and that is it.

It does work. And the military is a good example. More meaningful bonds are created by real proximity, real relationship, real community, as opposed to the mental communities of this or that racial identity.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Everything from apartheid, to eugenics, to Nazism stems from this belief.

All of that stems from a misunderstanding of that belief.
Misunderstandings that can only fester when not addressed.

If we looked at a human genome map of Jackie Chan and Shaquille O'neal we could see differences.
If we all understood how minor the differences were we would be in a better place.

We have the same goal here, we are just completely opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to solutions.

Perhaps sdcigarpig has it sussed out!
Forget all ideologies and groups and solely identify with the state.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Sources:

www.theguardian.com...
www.nbcnews.com...
www.tolerance.org...
www.psychologytoday.com...
www.theatlantic.com...

Race. Creed. Religion.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

If we looked at a human genome map of Jackie Chan and Shaquille O'neal we could see differences. If we all understood how minor the differences were we would be in a better place.

Of course we’d see differences. They are different individuals. But I bet Yao Ming is genetically more similar to Shaquille O’Neal than he is to Jackie Chan, given that individuals from different populations can be genetically more similar than individuals from the same population.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Analysis of genomes from around the world establishes that there is a biological basis for race, despite the official statements to the contrary of leading social science organizations. An illustration of the point is the fact that with mixed race populations, such as African Americans, geneticists can now track along an individual’s genome, and assign each segment to an African or European ancestor, an exercise that would be impossible if race did not have some basis in biological reality. Racism and discrimination are wrong as a matter of principle, not of science. That said, it is hard to see anything in the new understanding of race that gives ammunition to racists. The reverse is the case.

time.com...

It's a pretty long article but it seems to say allele frequencies (whatever they are) are responsible for race.

If this is the case would you agree that denying differences which exist is a bad way to confront the race problem?

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: burgerbuddy

How about sickle cell and booze intolerance? 

Sickle cell is also found in southern Europe and booze intolerance a bunch of folks from desperate parts of the globe are booze intolerant.

Sickle cell would be something it would make sense to find in people who live wherever malaria is very present since one copy of the gene is beneficial for survival as it makes you malaria resistant. It's when you have two that the problem arises.

It is less important now that there are effective malaria treatments, but that doesn't remove the genetic legacy.