I believe we should cancel the F-35 sale to Turkey

originally posted by: nwtrucker
I haven't followed this 'deal' to any degree or when it's scheduled to occur.

Most of the nations who have ordered it and who's sale has been approved seem to have already received or started to begin training for the pilots in preparation to receive the F-35. As the coding and upgrades continue on the F-35, more and more reports surface that the F-35 is exactly what LM claimed many years back. Second only to the F-22.

In no wise can I justify that sale to Turkey.

Yes, Turkey is a NATO member. SO WHAT? Seeing Bussels is incapable of any leadership, as usual, it falls on the Trump Administration to show who's the real leader. Then there's the MIC's interests or Trump policy for the U.S. in the ME. I hold this as a very critical point, both internally in the U.S. AND in maintaining credibility in the ME, overall.

Obviously, many levels to the ramifications of this and I am probably short on information to this conundrum. The first is Turkey, itself. Just what it's intentions are. Whether it lies with that so-called leader and a few others only or if it runs deep within that nation with the goal of a new version of the Ottoman Empire.

It would seem to be a stab in the back of the Kurds and would expose serious technology to a nation that has zero love for the U.S..

Off the top, this deal should trash-binned. Am I wrong?

Why? all we need to do is hardwire in a backdoor that if tampered with or modified to them so that if they try to fire on people we like the computers will fry and destroy the electronics.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The same could be said about the 350 billion dollar arms deal to Saudi Arabia. They're a member of NATO and are considered an ally. Yet they prescribe and practice the same radical teachings as ISIS.

a reply to: yuppa

That would be a solution way out of my league to speculate on. I assume any barriers could be worked around given enough time to do so.

Technology transfer is only one concern, though. The F-35 gives a dominant platform which can, and likely would, be used against the Kurds and any neighbor around them. The Greeks come to mind. Iraq couldn't match it. No one in the region could.

originally posted by: WeRpeons
a reply to: nwtrucker

The same could be said about the 350 billion dollar arms deal to Saudi Arabia. They're a member of NATO and are considered an ally. Yet they prescribe and practice the same radical teachings as ISIS.

Saudi Arabia is a NATO member? Since when???

Besides even the Saudis aren't getting the F-35. No one in the region outside of Israel. This issue of the OP is the F-35, not every and all military deals.

a reply to: nwtrucker
Nah, send them what they want. And after they pay for them, just push the "return to sender" button, and they'll all fly back home to us (with or without a pilot).

a reply to: nwtrucker

Off the top, this deal should trash-binned. Am I wrong?

Well you are not far off. Remember that Turkey recently closed a deal with Russia about the S-400 Missile system which is incompatible with NATO. As part of NATO’s collective defense pledge, the allies integrate their ships, planes and weapons systems to make them work together, as well as sharing command across the alliance.

Also it´s worth mentioning that the deal will be in Rubles.

“We will not borrow in dollars in this loan, we will borrow in rubles,” Hurriyet newspaper quoted Erdogan as telling reporters on his plane, returning from a trip to Africa.

According to Chemezov, Turkey would pay 45 percent of the cost of the agreement up front, with Russia providing loans to cover the remaining 55 percent.

Turkey, Russia sign deal on supply S-400

I see 2 options in my opinion. The first option is that Turkey will get kicked out of NATO and the second one is, that the F-35 deal, will be cancelled due to incompatibility with the NATO defense system.

But who knows.....

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

The compatibility issue seems far fetched in the sense that would any group of nations turn down an ally in a war merely because the arms were different? I think not.

It seems closer to an effort by the MICs of the various regions-yes, the U.K., Europe and even Turkey have 'MIC's as well although only the U.S.'s gets vilified- to control/engender more profits.

Do you really think NATO, even with Trump's 'encouragement' would actually kick Turkey out of NATO? If I had to bet, it would be no or hell, no.

I'd also bet this comes down to Trump, not NATO and withdrawing those 'NATO' nukes would be the first order of business....if they're not already gone. Then cancel the F-35 deal.

Just idle speculation on my part, though.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Every bolt will be seen by our enemies.

Idiots keep trusting the Turks.

You guys dont know this yet, but Turkey will start another great war. They are going to decimate some of our bases and kill hundreds of our guys.

Thats my gut talking. Carry on though. Maybe it needs to happen. I dont know.

originally posted by: Ohanka
Turkey is a big customer of US weaponry.

Spare parts, maintainence and overhaul contracts, upgrades, components for their local-produced equipment and the occasional new equipment sale.

The MiC would blow its lid at the loss of such a lucrative market.

Not to mention it would likely be the final nail in the coffin for the US-Turkey relationship. One that is particularly important. One of America's most important and probably the most important one in Europe.

The Turks would simply buy their weapons from Russia or China.

There are far worse people out there the US sells weapons to, Saudi Arabia for example, but again we run into the same issues as above.

The Turks are more dangerous to the world than the Saudi's. Saudi Arabia is becoming more liberal and western, slowly, but surely. Turkey is becoming more extreme, slowly, but surely too. They routinely clash with the kurds, threaten Cyprus, annoy European countries like Holland and Germany with the dictator Erdogan trying to get voters from those countries. I really don't see why and what makes Turkey so important. Erdogan encourages little girls to be martyrs, talks nonsense, and in my opinion much more dangerous.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The compatibility issue seems far fetched in the sense that would any group of nations turn down an ally in a war merely because the arms were different? I think not.

In my opinion, it´s not so far fetched, as the Russian Military architecture used in S-400, is different than NATO’s military architecture .

Do you really think NATO, even with Trump's 'encouragement' would actually kick Turkey out of NATO? If I had to bet, it would be no or hell, no.

The geographical position of Turkey provides a good reach in Middle East and Russia for NATO in case of war. The problem is that NATO will loose control over East Med. by kicking Turkey out of NATO.

In my opinion however Russia gained control over East Med. indirectly after the incident in 2015 where Turkey shot down a Russian jet, and Turkey became a puppet of Russia. It maybe a bit far fetched but is my opinion.

Just idle speculation on my part, though.

What will happen only time will tell. One thing is for sure though. Turkey is moving away from NATO and the west. After all Turkey openly threatens to invade Greece, which Greece is also NATO member. Anyway, all we can do is speculate.

Peace

a reply to: nwtrucker

Your correct, my mistake. Before posting I did a quick search to see if Saudia Arabia was a member of NATO. In my haste I saw them on the list, but it wasn't for being a member of NATO. I was actually surprised when I saw it because I originally didn't think they were a member. However, they are a U.S. ally which I find a complete abomination considering they practice the same radical Islam as ISIS terrorists.

originally posted by: WeRpeons
a reply to: nwtrucker

Your correct, my mistake. Before posting I did a quick search to see if Saudia Arabia was a member of NATO. In my haste I saw them on the list, but it wasn't for being a member of NATO. I was actually surprised when I saw it because I originally didn't think they were a member. However, they are a U.S. ally which I find a complete abomination considering they practice the same radical Islam as ISIS terrorists.

My understanding is the current regime has been 'cleaning house'. I haven't delved into it too much, but it looks like many of those radicals are out of business within the Royal family. I speculate that they've taken Trump's policies to heart and have made efforts to reduce those that support the radicals.

After all, that same 'Royal family' would be kaput under those same fundamentalists. Yes?

They also have a beef with Iran, the enemy of my enemy....

It looks like things are changing fast. A Russian-Iranian-Syrian coalition vs the U.S.-SA-Israeli and a few of the other smaller states, as well. The caveat being it could change again.

In the meantime, SA looks allied with the U.S.. Go figure.

a reply to: Seed76

Thought you might be interested in this:

www.youtube.com...

The current EU's economic warfare against Turkey and the Turkish Lira currency can easily backfire against the EU itself ...

Ever since the 1970s (and you could count WWI as well even though back then it was the Ottoman Empire as opposed to just Turkey) the Turkish Government has been antagonizing its neighbors. We saw it with the invasion of Cyprus which has remained occupied to this day, and ever since then Turkey has been violating Greek airspace unabated. Turkey has been fomenting rebel groups in Syria and across the Arab World for the past decade, and committing what amounts to genocide against the Kurds. They are a fascist, racist regime that has been intervening in foreign lands to a FAR greater degree than Russia, which has been more sporadic and reactive as opposed to outright imperialist. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if the unmarked "little green men" in Crimea and other parts of the Ukraine were in fact TURKISH, not Russian. Turkey needs to not only be booted from NATO but perhaps brought before The Hague for crimes against humanity.

originally posted by: The GUT
Sell 'em to 'em with a backdoor kill switch.

as if we don't?

a reply to: shooterbrody

That's actually a common misconception. We don't.

Go ahead, cancel it.