I believe we should cancel the F-35 sale to Turkey

I haven't followed this 'deal' to any degree or when it's scheduled to occur.

Most of the nations who have ordered it and who's sale has been approved seem to have already received or started to begin training for the pilots in preparation to receive the F-35. As the coding and upgrades continue on the F-35, more and more reports surface that the F-35 is exactly what LM claimed many years back. Second only to the F-22.

In no wise can I justify that sale to Turkey.

Yes, Turkey is a NATO member. SO WHAT? Seeing Bussels is incapable of any leadership, as usual, it falls on the Trump Administration to show who's the real leader. Then there's the MIC's interests or Trump policy for the U.S. in the ME. I hold this as a very critical point, both internally in the U.S. AND in maintaining credibility in the ME, overall.

Obviously, many levels to the ramifications of this and I am probably short on information to this conundrum. The first is Turkey, itself. Just what it's intentions are. Whether it lies with that so-called leader and a few others only or if it runs deep within that nation with the goal of a new version of the Ottoman Empire.

It would seem to be a stab in the back of the Kurds and would expose serious technology to a nation that has zero love for the U.S..

Off the top, this deal should trash-binned. Am I wrong?

yep...the Kurds have been hammred too much already , dang

yep...the Kurds have been hammred too much already , dang

Turkey is a big customer of US weaponry.

Spare parts, maintainence and overhaul contracts, upgrades, components for their local-produced equipment and the occasional new equipment sale.

The MiC would blow its lid at the loss of such a lucrative market.

Not to mention it would likely be the final nail in the coffin for the US-Turkey relationship. One that is particularly important. One of America's most important and probably the most important one in Europe.

The Turks would simply buy their weapons from Russia or China.

There are far worse people out there the US sells weapons to, Saudi Arabia for example, but again we run into the same issues as above.

originally posted by: Ohanka
Turkey is a big customer of US weaponry.

Spare parts, maintainence and overhaul contracts, upgrades, components for their local-produced equipment and the occasional new equipment sale.

The MiC would blow its lid at the loss of such a lucrative market.

Not to mention it would likely be the final nail in the coffin for the US-Turkey relationship. One that is particularly important. One of America's most important and probably the most important one in Europe.

The Turks would simply buy their weapons from Russia or China.

There are far worse people out there the US sells weapons to, Saudi Arabia for example, but again we run into the same issues as above.

Well, your post looks to me as identical to any coming out of the MIC PR machine. Of course, much of it is valid, as well.

Compared to the overall customers of U.S. weaponry, Turkey is small potatoes in my estimation. It also stands to reason any deal with any country that is cancelled opens the door to Russian or Chinese....or French or everyone else, for that matter, to pick up the slack. Perhaps upgraded F-16s instead? Turkey is subject to the same fate as Venezuela which suffers from no replacement parts for it's extant fleet. That could park their air defenses in short order. Yes?

In other words, Turkey would suffer far more than the U.S, in an outright face off between the two nations.

Perhaps that F-35 deal is already a 'leverage point' being used by the U.S.?

a reply to: Ohanka

P.S. I hold Turkey worse than SA. The Saudi regime is cooperating with both the U.S. and Israel, largely due to Iran, I suspect.

Turkey is playing their own game and poses a far greater threat to the ME than the Saudis, by far, IMO.

I think we should kick them out of NATO entirely, and push them out of Northern Iraq.

Turkey has been taken over by Islamic fascists.

originally posted by: projectvxn
I think we should kick them out of NATO entirely, and push them out of Northern Iraq.

Turkey has been taken over by Islamic fascists.

The Greeks would declare a national holiday....

I'm not sure anyone would disagree with you.

Turkey is clearly the enemy of America, some people are slower to see it than others.

They'll align with Russia in the future.

originally posted by: xstealth
I'm not sure anyone would disagree with you.

Turkey is clearly the enemy of America, some people are slower to see it than others.

They'll align with Russia in the future.

It seems likely, yet even if that occurs-more than it already has- I doubt that relationship will approach the iranian-Russian level. The Turks did shoot down a Russian plane. Even NK hasn't shown that level of arrogance.

My gut says Turkey has their own agenda and will not play 'client state' for anyone.

originally posted by: xstealth
I'm not sure anyone would disagree with you.

Turkey is clearly the enemy of America, some people are slower to see it than others.

They'll align with Russia in the future.

Of course they do. It is prophecy.

Then it's high time to stop re-electing the same two parties, yes? Take this issue seriously. The biggest lie they sell is that Trump is a coup against business as usual, and many of you believed it. It's farcical. They did the same thing with the left with Obama, sold the idea he would usher in a new way. Nothing changed of course, both sides play the same game behind closed doors. MIC is big business and foreign policy is set in stone no matter which side you elect. Political differences are branding for public consumption.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I don't think they have earned our top shelf fighter by their actions.

Unfortunately, I think they are one of the countries who produce some of the components and part of that deal is they get them. It's part of the way we keep costs down on it,by spreading out develpment costs to other countries

Correct me if I'm wrong.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Facts first, speculation later

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Turkey increased military spending by 9.7% between 2007 and 2016. At $14.8 billion, it is the 18th largest military spender globally. SIPRI lists Turkey as the world’s 6th largest importer after India, Saudi Arabia, UAE, China, and Algeria. Some sources estimate the value of Turkey’s annual arms imports at $2 to $2.5 billion per year. While Turkish annual defense exports to the United States are close to $600 million per year, imports from the United States are approximately $1.5 billion. In 2016, the United States was the largest defense export market for Turkey followed by Germany, Malaysia, Azerbaijan, the UK, UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia. The top export items in 2015 were aircraft and helicopter parts, engines, tank and other armored land vehicle parts, ammunition, turbojets for civilian aircraft, hunting rifles, and receiver/transmitter equipment for military use. According to the Turkish Defense Industry Association, Turkey currently exports 1/3 of its defense industry production, about $5 billion worth. Defense exports constitute 1% of the total Turkish exports.

Turkey - Defense Technology and Equipment

Turkey is carrying a big stick! We can see why other governments around the world looked the other way when Eurodragon went tyrannical on'em.

And our mans (because there seems to be folks that back this clown) is straight *****ing on NATO and been buggin out. But like I said, they got a big stick. They're gonna fold the Kurds and make quick work of'em too, someone *cough* US *cough* lied to them about backing them and the Kurds are going to be in a hurt locker. They can either go to Assasd and Russian, kiss the ring or go get that work from Turkey.

And as the facts show, Turkey has work in the billions.

Sell 'em to 'em with a backdoor kill switch.

originally posted by: cenpuppie
a reply to: nwtrucker

Facts first, speculation later

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), Turkey increased military spending by 9.7% between 2007 and 2016. At $14.8 billion, it is the 18th largest military spender globally. SIPRI lists Turkey as the world’s 6th largest importer after India, Saudi Arabia, UAE, China, and Algeria. Some sources estimate the value of Turkey’s annual arms imports at $2 to $2.5 billion per year. While Turkish annual defense exports to the United States are close to $600 million per year, imports from the United States are approximately $1.5 billion. In 2016, the United States was the largest defense export market for Turkey followed by Germany, Malaysia, Azerbaijan, the UK, UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia. The top export items in 2015 were aircraft and helicopter parts, engines, tank and other armored land vehicle parts, ammunition, turbojets for civilian aircraft, hunting rifles, and receiver/transmitter equipment for military use. According to the Turkish Defense Industry Association, Turkey currently exports 1/3 of its defense industry production, about $5 billion worth. Defense exports constitute 1% of the total Turkish exports.

Turkey - Defense Technology and Equipment

Turkey is carrying a big stick! We can see why other governments around the world looked the other way when Eurodragon went tyrannical on'em.

And our mans (because there seems to be folks that back this clown) is straight *****ing on NATO and been buggin out. But like I said, they got a big stick. They're gonna fold the Kurds and make quick work of'em too, someone *cough* US *cough* lied to them about backing them

and the Kurds are going to be in a hurt locker. They can either go to Assasd and Russian, kiss the ring or go get that work from Turkey.

And as the facts show, Turkey has work in the billions.

Good information! Obviously, I wasn't aware of these numbers and it explains much. Yes?

Then this situation becomes even more....what's the word...'relevant' in bringing to light just who runs the U.S. in it's foreign policy. Trump has taken good care of the MIC with increased spending in the military and it's not impossible that national defense spending aligns with the overall military picture world-wide. In other words, both 'overlap' in interests and have disagreements. ( Not unlike Trump and the Republican Elites.)

So let the speculation begin.LOL. To wit, is compromise possible? Such as cancelling the F-35 sale while maintaining other transactions? LM stocks have done quite nicely in the last few years and Trump has leverage in the overall number of F-35s, et al, that the U.S. purchases from LM so it's not a one-sided affair by any stretch. It 'could' be viewed as a good PR move by LM to agree to cancel that one deal. Yes? (That's assuming Trump even wants to play that card. It should be noted that Turkey hasn't received any F-35s yet and that 'could' be telling in and of itself.)

originally posted by: SteveR
Then it's high time to stop re-electing the same two parties, yes? Take this issue seriously. The biggest lie they sell is that Trump is a coup against business as usual, and many of you believed it. It's farcical. They did the same thing with the left with Obama, sold the idea he would usher in a new way. Nothing changed of course, both sides play the same game behind closed doors. MIC is big business and foreign policy is set in stone no matter which side you elect. Political differences are branding for public consumption.

First of all, at least for me, the jury is still out on who runs this particular show. Compromise isn't impossible and that is Trump's forte.

Next, what evidence is there that a 'third' or forth party wouldn't subject to the same pressures as the original two?
Crony capitalism, party whips, pork barrel projects, campaign donations all exist in other nations with multiple parties and I see no evidence that they function any better than the two party system. JMO, though.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: nwtrucker

I don't think they have earned our top shelf fighter by their actions.

Unfortunately, I think they are one of the countries who produce some of the components and part of that deal is they get them. It's part of the way we keep costs down on it,by spreading out develpment costs to other countries

Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's my view of it.

originally posted by: projectvxn

I think we should kick them out of NATO entirely, and push them out of Northern Iraq.

Turkey has been taken over by Islamic fascists.

There was a think tank paper that came out around the turn of the 2000's that posited Turkey would align with Russia and become adversarial with the United States, seems it has come to pass. I agree with ousting them from NATO.

I thought Turkey were gonna be nailed on to get f35's, but from a quick Google it does look like the US might pull the plug. The US airforce is concerned about Turkeys purchase of Russian S400 anti aircraft systems.
I doubt there to comfortable at the pentagon with Russia potentially finding out the F35s radar signiture.

Starting to look more and more likely that the Eastern med may cause the next major conflict.