Others are not as polarized and opposite as you imagine. We can come together.

I've spent a lot of time debating different issues - on this forum, on Facebook, on reddit, and in person, and I've come to learn that that people that lean extreme left or extreme right are quite the minority, at least in my experiences - and I live in Utah, around a lot of lds people, known to be some of the more conservative people around.

Yet I can talk to any of them, and have seen hundreds in groups talk about things like gun rights, abortions, marijuana legalization, and the like - and the results?

Most often, those on the right will agree on stricter enforcement of gun laws, they will agree that abortion is often medically necessary and shouldn't be outright banned as a procedure, they will agree that marijuana used for medicinal purposes might be a good idea ( especially with our opioid problem in Utah.. ) and quite often those on the left will agree that guns are for protection and safety, hunting and sport, they will agree that term limits and other options being presented are reasonable, and are usually quite glad to at least compromise on the medical usage of marijuana.

We seem to get caught up in the details, though, and end up making no progress at all - because we have a media and a government that represent the most extreme of views. Something needs to be banned, abolished, outlawed, or completely free and unhindered, and there's nothing between.

They are not representative of the average citizen, not at all.

We all want safer schools and safer communities.
We all want more happy and healthy families contributing to our society.
We all want to help those with illnesses and ailments.

At least, I imagine we do. If these desires do not reflect your own, let me know.

As far as the path to take to make these desires manifest... That's where I myself believe we can change. If we could let our government know that we are willing to budge on an issue, that we have some flex space, some open mindedness, that at least some of us believe that trial and error are essential for progress.. Well, maybe progress would happen.

I completely believe that small steps in any direction can be helpful in that we learn from those steps taken. I'll attempt to give an example, and I would very much like to hear from those that agree or disagree.

Recently, gun rights and control have been a major topic - what if we took a few common sense steps towards resolving this issue, while maintaining our second amendment to the highest we possibly/reasonably can?

First, we need to ensure we enforce the current laws the best we possibly can. Second, students and citizens from broken homes and with psychology issues need a lot more attention and help - it seems while everyone is gripping their guns tighter than ever, or calling for the ban of them, everyone forgets that a human being committed this crime - perhaps one who shouldn't have been able to get a gun - which leads me to third point, I believe that perhaps we could improve gun laws in two areas especially- training and storage.

That's just off the top of my head - if you care to expand or refute this basic idea, I'm glad to hear from you.

Anyways, I hope that one day myself, and we as a community here on above top secret can live up to the motto - Deny Ignorance.

Thanks for reading.

-deadlyhope

a reply to: deadlyhope

Most people don't bother trying to stay informed.

At presidential elections only about 50% of eligible people participate. Let's assume many of them get their "news" from the entertainment conglomerates, we have a problem.

Democracy only works with well informed citizens.

I’m confused what the extreme right is. I’ve always voted on both sides of the aisle. Ever since I voted Trump I’ve been labeled as extreme right. The left here on ATS created their own monster. The tried to shame anyone that didn’t agree with them and labeled us all alt-right and now our stubbornness hasn’t brought extreme partisanship here in the political threads. Now they claim ATS was taken over by the alt-right but really were the same old people that’s been here forever. Outside social media I don’t see the divide as clearly.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Agreed.

The internet is becoming the major.. Well, everything.

It can be used to educate, manipulate, teach, corrupt, etc .. And often it's extremes that are popular - YouTube search for "calm and collected debate" type videos are likely a hundredth that of "furious rager talks about their position" videos.

Yet, it seems to me that once a person accepts that compromise, education, facts, statistics, open-mindedness, etc.. Are good things, it seems they don't regress as often. Once a person is willing to accept that their views are not inherently correct and those views being challenged are just as valid as any challenge - a small amount of progress has been made, in my opinion.

a reply to: amicktd

Ats really is a mix of both - anti Trump and anti Hillary threads flood the front page all the time, though really that's hardly the perfect measurement.

How I've seen the "far right" interpreted is a person who won't compromise on certain issues - all guns allowed for all people, abortion banned, welfare disbanded, marijuana criminalized, etc..

I've never met such a person. Nor the opposite "liberal snowflake" who isn't willing to talk about freedom of business and enterprise, guns for hunting/protection, etc ( there's people with single views that lean far one way, but I've never met someone who doesn't stay across the line or get close to it on some issues)

a reply to: deadlyhope

Once a person is willing to accept that their views are not inherently correct and those views being challenged are just as valid as any challenge - a small amount of progress has been made, in my opinion.

Agreed. We're as human as the next person.

In the end, most people have good intentions. We just see different approaches to the same solutions. Some people confuse working together as "losing". It's all or nothing for the tribes..

God forbid we keep this melting pot of everything going. People literally say the differing opinions of those in their community are as toxic as our enemies... If not enabling our enemies.

How the pundits have taken hold.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

"No one thinks they are the bad guy" is a quote I've heard, and it's one that i believe is quite helpful when trying to understand others. Some people truly believe banning some guns will change the nation for the better. Others truly believe that those guns are offering more protection, safety, and deterrent and that banning them would increase unwanted deaths, and the like.

I realize that compromise may be seen as weak or negative to some, but I really believe we could pass legislation that both reduces mass shootings, yet doesn't restrict us in ways that a large amount of people find to be unjust.

I won't compromise on any of my rights in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution.

After that I am willing to negotiate.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Some people truly believe banning some guns will change the nation for the better. Others truly believe that those guns are offering more protection, safety, and deterrent and that banning them would increase unwanted deaths, and the like.

I'm pro responsible gun ownership. Meaning we could do better to keep them out of the hands of those who can't handle that responsibility.

One of the most popular arguments for not addressing how guns are distributed is to fight tyranny.

You fight tyranny with democracy. That only works with a healthy and respectful exchange of well informed participants.

Should that deteriorate, if people can't find common grounds in words, I doubt they'll come together in arms.

On the off chance they do, it's to late. US Military > people with semi automatic rifles who can't even talk with one another with civility.

Words are the only thing that will fix this country. It's literally becoming hostile because we are.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I won't compromise on any of my rights in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution.

After that I am willing to negotiate.

Funny how we're all correct on the interpretation of words from hundreds of years ago.

Since we're all right, you don't have to worry about trying to negotiate.

a reply to: Metallicus

Hello metallicus.

You know we resonate on some level, being that I somewhat identify as libertarian. ( well, mostly feel no need to identify at all these days, but if I did...)

You would likely be willing to negotiate/debate the meaning of those rights, would you not?

For instance, many people assert that the 2nd is intended for protection against a corrupt government or invading army, so some may extrapolate from there that hand guns and rifles are a part of the interpretation.

Yet, it's common sense not to allow an 18 year old to buy a grenade launcher, or to let just any untrained person of any age to buy a military grade automatic rifle - and it also makes sense to me not to allow a person that has a history of abuse, assault, aggravated violence, etc, to buy just any gun.

Basically I believe there's ways to restrict the cases I've laid out above ( let me know if you disagree ) yet let the rights of the general public stay intact. I actually personally believe citizen/community organized militias should have access to higher fire power than others, as this would enhance a communities and the citizens abilities to truly defend against an extreme threat, though this would have to include lots of training, etc.

Anyways, that's basically how I would converse about these things. I may not hold the best stances or the stances that are most conducive to a better nation, but I am willing to be told the ways that I am wrong.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: amicktd

I've never met such a person. Nor the opposite "liberal snowflake" who isn't willing to talk about freedom of business and enterprise, guns for hunting/protection, etc ( there's people with single views that lean far one way, but I've never met someone who doesn't stay across the line or get close to it on some issues)

As I have met the "liberal snowflake" multiple times working at a university, and the opposite. It really is difficult right now.

There is a culture war at hand, nothing to do with ethnic, or sexuality.
Although the outside of gay, or straight exasperates it, as it is new to many outside of big cities.
Not condemning it, just saying it.

The live and let live mentality is gone.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Metallicus is good people.

From what I know of him, I personally interpret what he says to mean that for those that intend no harm, don't restrict them, type of thing. Which is a sentiment I can then extrapolate on, and would be happy to find reasonable ways to ensure those that do intend harm, are stopped.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

I don't have the perfect answer as far as universities go.. As far as the media depicts and what I've heard, some universities supposedly do contain these far-left people that I personally have never encountered. To those situations, I say hopefully, that they are mostly young and/or impressionable. They are surrounded by either a large amount, or very loud people with specific opinions - I have the hope that when their education is over, they may actually open their minds and learn. Every generation disagrees with their elders, and huge amounts of people in their teens and twenties are just looking for themselves, often rebelling against the teachings of their parents - this leads to both good and bad circumstances, but overall has not come to a tipping point of bad, at least as far as I know.

( hint, we are safer and more secure and healthier ( well, medicine ) than ever before in human history, no matter what the media says )

The common sense solution is not to do anything in a panic. Anything you're thinking when you're angry or sad or scared is going to be clouded by that. If it has to be done "RIGHT NOW" it's not common sense.

The average Americans (I say because that's where most of my experience is) are not very different from each other, you start to run into problems when people have to think about areas outside their bubble.

Gun control for example, what would make sense in the crowded city would not make sense in the Ozarks, or the mountains of Montana, or Alaska. (credit to the redneck for articulating it much better than I could)

It works the other way as well, many people have a hard time grasping how large our country is and how many different ways of living there are in it.

Once we get past that hicup there is really little difference, heck I think it also works world wide Ive pissed off several german friends when stating that the farm area I live in right now could easily be the middle of the US with the only major differnce between the people is language.

I honestly don't see it in the real world.
I only see it on the television, which i try to avoid as much as possible.
Just sitting out in the yard plinking cans off of fence posts with a couple of Mexicanos and a black dude...drinking beers and having a mellow time.
The hog on the smoker should be ready around noonish.
Life is good.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I won't compromise on any of my rights in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution.

After that I am willing to negotiate.

"It is the weak man who urges compromise, never the strong man."
-Elbert Hubbard

"The opposite of compromise is character."
-Frederick Douglass

a reply to: DBCowboy

"The 'morality of compromise' sounds contradictory. Compromise is usually a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat. Strong men don't compromise, it is said, and principles should never be compromised" - Andrew Carnegie

I agree that principles should not be compromised on. We should never give up our right to defend and protect ourselves.

It's the details, the specifics that need to be fleshed out. The constitution certainly doesn't lay a path for a 6 year old to be running a gatling gun in his back yard, within a neighborhood.. Obviously I'm exaggerating the point, but what does need to be talked about is how to hold the second in its highest, while ensuring safety of the citizens in the highest. Safety training and storage requirements don't seem too crazy to me - if someone doesn't have the safety on and is waving a gun around at a range, they need to be taught how to keep safe. Also, semi automatics and bullets should be in a safe, not in the living room with the kids..

Agree? Disagree?

a reply to: deadlyhope

Op, you hit the nail on the head! I've been saying this for years.

I've worked in many different industries, was in the Army, was an elected official, been involved in volunteering and non profits, owned several businesses and been involved in sports, martial arts etc.

And it's only online, on Facebook, on ATS and in the news and radio that we can't get along. LOL

In real life, everyone compromises and we can actually come together and work things out and discuss issues.

The people that are the least open to compromise and won't listen to reason are the people that watch the most news...ergo...the most brainwashed amongst us. Not the most informed, but the most brainwashed.