Yea for Transgender Equality!!

a reply to: Flesh699

Dude, the athlete in the OP was born a female.

And Lifesite News... seriously? The author of your article wrote the whole thing misgendering the trans athlete he was writing about.Little bit of bias there.

Perfect ring entering music for this person.

I've known plenty of women who could, and sometimes did, beat the snot out of a man.
Make it co-ed.
May the best fighter win.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Abysha

a reply to: Abysha



Nope. But I'll call people what they like to be called.

Can you refer to me as 'God' from now on?

Is that what you go by daily and expect your friends and family to call you?


PS Added Stuffs - You know what? # it. Of course I'll call you that. Only a god of your imagination would be so simple as you are. You are now "God" to me. Until I see you misgendering a person again. Deal?

It doesn't matter - it's irrelevant.

Calling Robert Bob because he prefers tht is not the same as calling someone who is a woman a man, or he.

It's completely different. Man/he/him and woman/she/her have a partciular meaning in language. The former refers to someone who is biologically male, the latter to someone who is biologically female. It's a weak and rather absurd argument to compare the two.

Robert and Bob have no real meaning, I'd call Robert Bob if he asked me to for one very simple reason, he's more likely to respond to Bob and, as previously stated, it requires no mental gymnastics from me or anyone. It's completely irrelevant and the idiot making this argument knows that fine well. If I want to get Bobs attention I'd say...hey, Bob - but if I want to get a womans attention I wouldn't say - hey, she! Or, hey...her! Would you? They don't compare in any way, different terminology used in a totally different context and it takes a special kind of idiot not to realise that.

But stick with it, you're at least convincing yourself that there's validity in your stupidity.

If this argument was credible then, rightly - you must be prepared to agree that I'm Chinese, despite having been born and raised in Scotland, to Scottish parents...simply because I expect you to.

And you might play ball...you might be so feeble and weak minded that you are incapable of saying - "No, Michael, you are not chinese"...but you're apparently not strong enough to do so. Thus, you'd opt to play along with my delusion and pretend that I'm a Chinaman...even if I had a big ginger beard, was wearing a kilt and blasting on some bagpipes...you'd still play along and massage my delusional mindset with your idiocy.

But even so...I'd still be Scottish, saying something is true doesn't make it so. Things are only true when they are so, and no amount of your whinging and crying over it will change that.

Robert can be Bob if he likes - Rober and Bob are simply names, labels that we use to address particular people. There is no standard definition for Robert or Bob - hell, I'd call you frankenstein if it really made you happy.

But if you were born with a penis I'll always call you him, he, mister or man and on the contrary if you were born with a vagina I'd call you she, her, misses or woman because those words have a clearly defined meaning in language.

Like I said, you're basically trying to bully people into agreeing with you, and when they don't you cry and insult them. And you had the absolute audacity to call me whiny when really, all I've done is mock your stupidity and toy with you.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Flesh699

Dude, the athlete in the OP was born a female.

And this is yet another problem with the whole 'trans" fad. People put the word in front of male of female, and suddenly no one knows who is an 'innie' or 'outie' and whether the problem is a boy wresting girls or a girl on steroids.

We need consistency and accuracy or language is chaos.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Language does, and always has evolved.
As does everything.

Adapt, or...

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Flesh699

Dude, the athlete in the OP was born a female.

And this is yet another problem with the whole 'trans" fad. People put the word in front of male of female, and suddenly no one knows who is an 'innie' or 'outie' and whether the problem is a boy wresting girls or a girl on steroids.

We need consistency and accuracy or language is chaos.

If you are transitioning to male, you are trans male; if you are transitioning to female, you are trans female.

it’s really not that hard.

originally posted by: LungFuMoShi

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Abysha

a reply to: Abysha



Nope. But I'll call people what they like to be called.

Can you refer to me as 'God' from now on?

Is that what you go by daily and expect your friends and family to call you?


PS Added Stuffs - You know what? # it. Of course I'll call you that. Only a god of your imagination would be so simple as you are. You are now "God" to me. Until I see you misgendering a person again. Deal?

It doesn't matter - it's irrelevant.

Calling Robert Bob because he prefers tht is not the same as calling someone who is a woman a man, or he.

It's completely different. Man/he/him and woman/she/her have a partciular meaning in language. The former refers to someone who is biologically male, the latter to someone who is biologically female. It's a weak and rather absurd argument to compare the two.

Even people born male or female sexwise, can sometimes say they're not real men or real women if they're not fertile. Biology has a lot to do with it.

For example will the intelligence advantage of being biologically male go away with early Hormone replacement therapy? Or will the probably improved wiring due to hormones make the situation worse in an intellectual competition?

In the image above, there's a picture of a cat on the left. On the right, can you tell whether it's a picture of the same cat, or a picture of a similar looking dog? The difference between the two pictures is that the one on the right has been tweaked a bit by an algorithm to make it difficult for a type of computer model called a convolutional neural network (CNN) to be able to tell what it really is. In this case, the CNN think it's looking at a dog rather than a cat, but what's remarkable is that most people think the same thing.-article link

Here's the thing irregardless of what people call others, deep down the brain will classify things based on physical appearance, sounds and behavior. If a voice sounds manly or feminine, it will be automatically classified as such. If the way someone walks looks feminine or manly it will be classified as such. If the face and body look manly or feminine it will be classified as such.

Barring an intent to insult, so long as one has the proper appearance, behavior, and sounds, automatically the proper pronouns will normally be used. It is only when there is something that does not match, a feature that causes a classification in another category will there be misuse of pronouns accidentally(assuming nongender descript clothing). Out of respect if there is gender descript clothing, the proper pronouns may be used. But even so there will be effort and an innate feeling that you're using the wrong label, since the brain's automatic categorization tells you otherwise.

That is barring someone coming out and exposing their transition, if it was fully successful(changed all visible, audible atttributes to those of the opposite gender), someone who doesn't know will find it natural to use the correct pronouns. IF someone has say a very masculine face, even if they were born biologically female, it will cause an innate misclassification in others, and a high probability of the wrong pronouns being used if they have non gender descript clothing.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I understand that this is the point of this thread !

I dont have a problem with it because I think we should compete against each other male vs female
what difference does it make , we should have a male / male , female/ female , and female /male
competitions so if they want to compete they can . It is the governing bodies themselves that will cry that it's unfair
to have a natal male now trans female , compete against other females because of the physical advantage the male has over females. Or natal female now trans male compete against other males.

What I am saying is that , we should allow anyone to use whatever drugs they wish , if a man is born and wants to use drugs to become a woman , then if they are free to do so in society , then I should also be allowed to freely experiment with drugs to explore my own consciousness regardless of the fact it has nothing to do with my expression or alteration of my sex and gender .

a reply to: Abysha

aye and you said it would be a "dick" move to misgender someone !
dick , # , pussy , ass , they are more offensive because they relate to body parts and carnal desire and it was bad because of religious prudishness so have always been offensive words

I agree with you though the two most offensive words in the english language are # and Nigger

that says a lot about society

a reply to: Woodcarver

I've seen the point made before , there are no trans or gay reservations or trans or gay ghettos

and that comparing the oppression and general attitude of society towards "people of colour" (imo the worst term ever because that means all of humanity as we all are pigmented) To the oppression and general attitude of society to LGBT community cannot even be compared according to many.

originally posted by: sapien82

I understand that this is the point of this thread !

I dont have a problem with it because I think we should compete against each other male vs female
what difference does it make , we should have a male / male , female/ female , and female /male
competitions so if they want to compete they can .

What about the trans female who takes T inhibitors and estrogen supplements? Not very sporty for them to compete against T raging boys now is it?

I get your message... Do what you want in life choices, but society needs to adapt to your special needs...yea right....

The deal is you can have all the "what about the children" events you want, go for it, and we see that with special and para Olympics and other sporting type events. Then you can dump all these special needs cases in their own special sport buckets.

When we talk main stream sports it cost a lot of money and starting at the high school level and up it generates a lot of money, so good luck in getting what are special cases rolled into main stream sports. As to females competing in a male sport they will mostly not do very well and will have a elevated risk of injury, so your "it would be their choice" is not a good answer.

Sexuality aside, I have always wondered where Oscar Pistorius would have been in his sport if he had actual legs. His fake legs greatly reduces his body weight and with each stride a good chunk of his expended energy was transferred in the spring action of his artificial limbs, seems like a very unfair advantage there, doesn't it.

originally posted by: sapien82

I've seen the point made before , there are no trans or gay reservations or trans or gay ghettos

There isn't enough in the world to get a good or bad reading on this...Kind of hard for 5 poor trans to make a ghetto...lol

a reply to: Xtrozero

I would be happy to have everyone compete no matter their ability ,as once they compete a few times and then face the reality that they are not physically able to compete . We then see trans females competing against natal females and destroying them in competition at which point everyone will cry its unfair and not equal at all and then society will probably realise that we cant treat people equally in sports if they have changed their natal sex and this gives them a physical advantage as it is unfair to others, if its all about equality right , so surely its unfair to the natal females to compete , get to a final where they face off against a trans female and get beaten easily , so you worked hard in a womans sport beat all the other females and then get beaten by a trans female , who genetically is male.

Only way to make it fair is to give all the other athletes performance enhancing drugs to match their physical strength
but then it wouldnt really be a natural human effort it would be assisted by chemicals and not really sporting

a reply to: Abysha

You mentioned earlier about the legal definition of a persons sex ?

Are trans males and females legally considered the opposite sex when they begin their medical transition or only once the doctors are happy that the transition is complete

I am clueless to the legal aspect of it all, and I am ignorant as to how this legal framework came into being or even how someone can legally change their sex , if biologically they are not the opposite sex.

You said you keep logging in to ATS and so must be mad , well yes that is probably the case as in we all enable each others madness , and we all tolerate to a degree each others madness. It is said if you repeat the same process over and over and expect different results its madness. However if you simply have no expectations then its just considered being in the present.

thanks

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Xtrozero


Only way to make it fair is to give all the other athletes performance enhancing drugs to match their physical strength
but then it wouldnt really be a natural human effort it would be assisted by chemicals and not really sporting

Then the ones who do not want to take health risking drugs to compete get screwed. I think it is much better just to say if your life choices lead you down XX path then you will not be eligible for main stream sports. I agree we should always have avenues for everyone to compete no matter what, but who is going to pay for it? The reality is that outside of male main stream sports there is very little money to support, even female main stream sports are supported by the male sport counterpart, so good luck...

a reply to: Xtrozero

yeh , everyone gets #ed when it comes down to money , doesnt matter if you are trans, gay, straight, white black brown, if you are poor then your sporting options are nearly nil!

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Abysha

You mentioned earlier about the legal definition of a persons sex ?

Are trans males and females legally considered the opposite sex when they begin their medical transition or only once the doctors are happy that the transition is complete

I am clueless to the legal aspect of it all, and I am ignorant as to how this legal framework came into being or even how someone can legally change their sex , if biologically they are not the opposite sex.

A judge decides that in a hearing and the requirements depend on the state but normally requires a set amount of biological changes. Which brings me to your second statement about "how someone can legally change their sex , if biologically they are not the opposite sex". I don't think you understand that biology during a transition changes. There are several determining markers for biological sex and most are changed. Enough so that trans people are often more biologically that sex than their cisgender counterparts. For example, a trans woman who has gender dysphoria and has medically transitioned will be more biologically woman than a cis gender woman who is naturally flat-chested (secondary sexual characteristic), suffers from PCOS (very common hormone imbalance affecting approximately 1 in 10 women), or has had a hysterectomy.

So when you misuse "biological" and then try to fit that into an understanding of legal definitions, I totally understand why it's confusing. You have to zoom out a bit and look at the whole picture and not just chromosomes (or whatever you are using as a narrow bench mark).

a reply to: Abysha

thanks I had no idea that a hearing was required , I thought that it was a matter of medical records and some office of records like name changes etc, you just need to provide the medical evidence and written letter from your doctor and you get your details changed legally.

Again its a lot more complex than I first imagined.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: WarPig1939
a reply to: butcherguy


By that logic no genders should exist at all on anything. Being male or female isnt sexist lmao. If that was true then this issue wouldve been solved a millennia ago.

I am not saying that there are no genders. I am saying that schools having all male or female leagues are sexist.
There should be just one league or division in each sport. To divide them by gender is denying certain people the opportunity to compete with others due to gender.

We must stop letting the tail wag the dog. The rules and restrictions are there for the vast, overwhelming and usual majority.
You get sometimes stronger girls and sometimes weaker boys, so what?
However these people do not fare well with the rest.

So, have a third division, like the one for disabled people.
Who by your logic should compete with non disabled athletes.

Do not make girls and boys compete against each other, not even mixed because the end result would be a hell of a lot of female losers and injured.
Yup, despite this one testosterone laden lady.

Girls would avoid sports altogether and the misogynists would have a field day.

Is that what you are after?