Pro_Life Violence

Originally posted by James the Lesser
He means stem cell research. Pro-Lifers say that the fetus should be thrown out as garbage instead of curing cancer, Lou Gherigs disease, paralysis, no, garbage can for all.

No pro lifers say there shouldn't be abortions because it ends life. I just heard on the news today that a nurse at a clinic was performing after hours abortions and was pocketing the money. As they caught her they found out the Dr. was not disposing of the aborted babies like your supposed too, He was flushing them down the toilet. The garbage can thing is not appropriate.

On the stem cell research thing, it doesn't get reported but there has never been stem cells from a fetus that have helped cure, and as a matter of fact a couple of years ago the were doing experiments with fetus stem cells and it actually harmed instead of helped during the testing.

Now there have been instances where adult stem cells have helped, I just read one today, plus no life has to end to get adult stem cells. There are even stem cells in umbylical(spelling?) cords that can be used.

Originally posted by truthseeka
All you hear from pro-lifers is "Blah blah blah, abortion's bad, blah blah blah, it's murder." You never hear, "Hey, lady, don't have an abortion, I'll raise your child."

If I could I would help to raise more kids. There would have to be strict standards, but if 300 and some billion can be pulled out of the air for Iraq then there is something that could done to help with adoptions.

It is not up for debate that life starts at conception. A miracle really.

So let us look with our hearts as to where the real problem starts with an unwanted pregnancy. Financial difficulty? Personal responsibility? Life long commitment? Single parent? What is the common denominator of each?

All factors point to how is this baby going to drag me down. If its going to screw up my life, then by god, its going first, because in the society of today, I wont be able to be free of " Baggage " with this child. I know this sounds harsh. But do we not know people who have had abortions who later had children and were miserable about the abortion? I know I do.

There are many mothers who cannot have children who would spend huge money, and be more then happy to adopt your child. Give nine months of your life for irresponsibility, or even a violation, for that life wants to live.
To love all men, and to love all women, means that we all make mistakes of passion. And the man that violates a women, is in the wrong; but I would ask that the child still be allowed to be born as much as it was not brought into this world out of passion. That child could be adopted and those new parents would cherish it like there own.
As for conctraception....absolutely. Love makes the world go round. If the two dont meet, then no problem. Life not formed.

As far as death penalty and pro-life. While it is said to turn the other cheek, it does not mean to let a killer into your home. We as man have the right to enforce for the good of man. Killers and scourges of the earth need to be enforced. Interpol has the right equation. Real Bad. Gotta Go. Sorry.
The elimination of fetuses for the most part is not rape. It is because of financial load. And death due to currency, I beleive is not right. If everything was free, and everyone gave selflessly, how many children would be saved? The economic factor would be removed. Its about economy mostly. Its about inconvenience, and sexual irresppnosibilty. Its about..." I dont have time for this "
Think about it. Can you show me in nature, where animals of any type have a mechanism for abortion? I used to be a pro-choicer. At 40 years of age, and having talked to many women about this issue, I can assure you that abortion is not something they would advise many to go through.
Speak to those that have had. Listen with your heart to what should be right versus whats allowed to be done. The doctors can exist, but if there is no business, then there would be no clinics.

Peace



[edit on 16-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 16-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by truthseeka


Who are you to tell someone that they can't have an abortion??

You are doing a lot of assuming here sweets...and piling people up, all together....we don't all tell others what they can and can not do....I certainly don't as it's not my place.....I just stated my belief and opinion on the subject.....we don't all act so arrogant as to tell others what to do, or as to what others are doing..... maybe you shouldn't either. And as to people lining up to adopt...how about using protection and we wouldn't have the problem to start with to even be having this debate....just an intelligent thought here....

Sorry if I lumped you into a group, LadyV.

I assume you know that contraception is 100% effective. Oh wait, it isn't. Simply suggesting that contraceptive use is the answer is being quite naive if you ask me. What does a couple who practice safe sex do when it fails, LadyV??

The reason I said the thing about adoption is that all pro-lifers say is "Don't abort." I personally hear them offer no alternatives. That is why I said what I said.

All I'm saying is that there is no right answer in all cases here. I'm not saying that every single woman who becomes pregnant should have an abortion. I'm saying that every woman deserves to choose whether or not she wants to have one. Do you have a problem with people who take loved ones off life support, or do you only care about the unborn?

And as for the supposed abortee (I guess that's how you say it) who would have cured a disease, how do you know that this abortee wouldn't have been an infamous serial killer? Just because someone's unborn doesn't mean they're perfect. Psycopathic killers weren't aborted, were they?

Dbrandt, are you blind????

Billions don't just appear out of thin air to fund the "war" in Iraq, which we're not even supposed to win. That dough comes from taxpayers like me. If you don't work and therefore don't pay taxes, you're smarter than me, because I pay taxes.

I bet it would peak your interest that our beloved Bush has increased abortion funding to record levels. But, Bush is conservative, he would never do that, right...

I'm very strong on being accountable for ones actions....and I don't think "getting rid" of a baby because it's not a convenient time at the moment, or your not ready yet, is appropriate. If your not ready, use a safe BC, or don't have sex. I'm hard core on this, sorry.... Abortion should be for necessity, not birth control! That's my opinion. Have you had one? Do you know how it feels...do you know what you live through for years afterwards? If you have had one and feel nothing....there is something seriously wrong with your character as a human being!

Originally posted by LadyV
I'm very strong on being accountable for ones actions....and I don't think "getting rid" of a baby because it's not a convenient time at the moment, or your not ready yet, is appropriate. If your not ready, use a safe BC, or don't have sex. I'm hard core on this, sorry.... Abortion should be for necessity, not birth control! That's my opinion. Have you had one? Do you know how it feels...do you know what you live through for years afterwards? If you have had one and feel nothing....there is something seriously wrong with your character as a human being!

All i can say to your post post is , Your view on abortion "should be for necessity,not birth control". I think that is something that everyone should think about and learn from. If people were automatically(girls) given birth control for free you wouldn't have as much of an issue as we do now. even the laws were stricter as in, a police report in the case of rape ,or a doctors note in the case of medical issues or even psycological.

LadyV, abortion as BC is a myth. Also, can use a condom with your g/f who is on the pill and still have her become pregnant. The whole reson using BC was to keep pregnancy from happening because you/her weren't able to take care of a kid, mentally, physically, and financially. So abortion would be the solution. Sorry, people don't have sex, then go to the abortion clinic the next day to get an abortion, then that night have sex, then that morning get an abortion, repeat. That is a myth spread by the religous nutjobs who say don't abort, we'll blow you up/shoot you/beat you to death before we allow that. Same thing with rape victims, did they want the kid? Is it thier fault that they now have a fetus they don't want? No, abortion is the solution. Not "well, had a gang bang last night, so gonna go to abortion clinic this morning."

Abortion is a choice, legal, illegal, doesn't matter. Clothe hanger anyone? Remember those? Nasty, usually causing infertility, so later in life when married, financially/emotionally/physically capable to care for a kid can't have them.

Still can't find any cases of pro-choice people blowing up churches, shooting ministers, doing drive bys on members of a church, nothing. Google "pro-life attack abortion clinic" Don't use "attack on" for on is dropped anyways, and get over 10 pages. At least I do, someone tried and said they got no matches........ BS I suspect for they are pro-we control your body, not you, and if you are willing to kill you are willing to lie.

Edit. Hey bored, how you doing? Also, BC is a sin, so is banned in the south. Most pharmacists in the south will not give out BC for it is against thier values or whatever. Sure this would work in the north/west where republicans don't control society, but the south, same thing as now.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by James the Lesser]

Originally posted by James the Lesser
LadyV, abortion as BC is a myth.

BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know several people...including one of my cousins that has done just that! So you are completely wrong! I know this for fact, because I know the people.

Wait, you have actual people who have done this? WTF? I have never heard of this being true. Damn LadyV, this is why it is better to have a discussion where people argue, you learn more then a discussion that everyone agrees with each other. But you are serious? You actually know people that do this? Damn, most abortion clinics have a shrink that you meet with to make sure you are capable of such choices...... maybe the shrink is on vacation or something.

Yes I do...and as I said one of them is my cousin. I bet there are many people here who know of someone that uses abortion for BC... Myth my patootie!

This conversation has digressed considerably but I think the answer to the original question is that in almost any group you have a fringe elemet that is so radical they do aweful things that make the whole group look bad. I mean sheesh that seems to be the mantra of the 21st century so far. I would think that most people you talked to that were pro life would in no way endorse and would in fact condemn anyone that murdered someone working at an abortion clinic, that was pro-choice, etc. As for agreeing with the death penalty, that isn't muder and in a society with laws it is appropriate that some actions would be heinous enough to warrant the forfeiture of ones life as a consequence. Yes mistakes have been made, I would like documentation of the 200 in the U.S. if thats what you're saying but it is a flaw in the system and does not invalidate the reasoning or philosophy behind it. At most it makes a strong argument to stop executing people till we reform the system, but that is as much ground as I will giv eyou on that one.

Originally posted by James the Lesser

Edit. ...BC is a sin, so is banned in the south. Most pharmacists in the south will not give out BC for it is against thier values or whatever. Sure this would work in the north/west where republicans don't control society, but the south, same thing as now.

Can you back this statement up with a reference? I am especially interested in reading your explanation concerning the last statement/sentence. Oh yeah, all pharmacies in the South carry BC.

I probably shouldn't step into this thread as it is a minefield, but....

Pro-choice is about the choice to make your own decision. A women's body is hers alone. I support that.

Pro-life is also a choice. It is about protecting those they consider to be people already. I support that too.

If pro-life is a choice, do the pro-choice people support the pro-life folks right to make that choice?

As for people who murder nurses, doctors, etc in the name of pro-life or anti-abortion, they are not advancing a noble cause to save lives. In this day and age the definition of some one that uses violence to impose a way of life or their will on someone is called a Terrorist.

Oh wait, the US invaded Iraq to impose democracy on the Iraqi people..... so ergo, they are terrrorists? Damn my whole argument came full circle and bit me on the butt.

Seriously though. Do pro-life (I stress in this I am referring to the more militant examples) people fight for lives? Nope. They weren't wandering around Somalia, Kosovo, Rawanda, Cambodia and any other place you care to name where genocide has reigned practically unchecked at various times. Ask the Kurds how many pro-lifers they saw when old Saddam was dropping gas on them and their children after the first Iraq war. Do they take food to starving children in the Sudan?

No they pick their own battles. They defend the weak and innocent by killing the weak and innocent, or by lack of action allow others to kill the weak and innocent. That is not even hypocracy, it is just bullsh*t.

In this sense they are choosing to value the life of the fetus over that of the parent. Which is the same action as a person who has an abortion, who simply chooses to value the life of the parent over that of a life that has not taken substance yet, even if it has been "formed". Life is about living the experience and if you like, creating memories. At the point of abortion the fetus is doing neither. I mean it (the "child") is developing physically, but is there spiritual/cognitive development?

[edit on 16-2-2005 by whita]

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You made it to easy. If you had asked for links/proof of jews are from mars and demand that BC is a sin, then I might have had a problem.

I actually find it hard to be 100% on either side of the issue. This is one that has to be considered for what is most humane to all involved. I will always be pro-choice, as far as laws and safe medical environments are concerned, but that doesn't mean I condone abortion for the most part.
Abortion/forced miscarriage will always exist, it just will be more dangerous if banned. Thats my issue.
That is why more measures to educate and prevent unwanted pregnancy should be taken. There's too many people who want to limit sexual education, and contraception distribution, yet want to outlaw abortion. Its ridiculous. Education is the most important thing here, to actually prevent the abortions.

I don't agree with most abortions, but I think whoever is pregnant knows the situation better than anyone else, and the rest of us should stay out of it.

I expected such, that you would not respond to the statement I quoted in my last post, James The Lesser.

I just did! I responded by giving you NEWS links to the south trying to ban BC for it being sinful. What more do you want? Hannity dancing on his desk and proclaiming that god told him that BC is a sin?

.
I am a capitalist.

The economy runs by virture of people engaging in business. The government does not force people to engage in business it happens naturally.

A person's body is their own possession. It is not the property of the US government or any other. Children are born by virture of mothers allowing gestation to happen inside their bodies for 9 months. The government should not force women into this role. There is no shortage of human beings.

When and if the anti-abortionists actually figure out the way of gestating an embryo to birth in some kind of chamber, it may be easier to persuade the mother to give up the living embryo. Trouble is the anti-abortionists are more superstitious than scientific or technological so they will probably not be the ones to bring this about.

Life comes in many forms. Bacteria, Trees, Birds, algae, fish, and on and on.
If you cared about all life in all its forms you could call yourself pro-life.

If you only care about other people's fetuses you should call yourself pro-human-embryo or pro-embryo.

If we don't slow down the growth of human population we will kill off many/most(?) other life forms. How can you call that pro-life? Sounds like pro-BS to me.

Does anyone else but me think pro-embryoists are part of the evolution machine? The base mechanism of a species that blindly tries to dominate its environment by endless expansion.
Sort of a biological freight train that has no intelligence or foresight.
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