America & Guns

Last time I checked Murder was already illegal.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You can talk whenever you want and however you want. But people might think of you as a rather crass ass. But you might like people to have that sort of opinion of you. Whatever makes you tick. That you refuse to listen to dissenting thought and regularly impede upon others with an air of superiority only lowers that opinion. You even revived a two month old thread to point out you were right.

Yes, I run the risk of making you feel ostracized. You may even wish to lash out for feelings of not belonging. But fortunately your government has already decided you cannot be trusted with firearms, so I am not worried you might shoot up London, Manchester, New Castle, Essex or wherever you live.

But that is the crux of the situation, isn’t it? A person lashing out for whatever slighted them. We can blame dodgy Meds, upbringing, guns and a multitude of other factors. But that is really what it all comes down to...lashing out. Just rather than hurtful words, they use death to others as their method.

Personally, I can own all guns I wish. The only harm they will cause is to paper targets and dents to my wallet. Might a woodland animal become a meal, possible but not likely. Person? Only if I truly feel they are a serious threat to myself or others and am forced to use them to protect. Even then, more than likely to protect others above myself. And here is another secret, never owned one before turning 30. I didn’t think it was something I needed to own until I came home to a coyote on the back porch that had zero fear of me trying to shoo it off. Since that time I have fired two rounds to scare off a couple of coyotes. The gun was not pointed at them. It was to scare, not kill.

Pretty sure I have told this all before. Pretty sure it was just as ignored as it will be this time. And pretty sure you still think I shouldn’t have a gun because of...reasons. That’s fine. Think what you want. Say what you want. Just know, that it looks like you are standing on bodies of children to make your point while they are still sorting out the mess and hurting.

And that looks pretty crappy to me.

a reply to: Ahabstar

I asked when it was ok to discuss school shootings.

You have not answered that question just spouted off the usual it’s ok for me to own a gun rhetoric

a reply to: GafferUK1981

I think the reason you don't have gun issues in the UK like in America is because of the way Society is driven, older values, different ideals things like that. British are patriotic in their own ways as are Americans in theirs.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I think its always a good time to discuss school shootings. But I really do think evaluating the behavior rather than the methodology is going to yield a better result. It didn't use to happen, then it suddenly started. Why?

Consequently, it began shortly after GHW Bush left office.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: GafferUK1981

You live on a tiny island. Police have a fighting chance to protect you. Your ancestors drove large predators to extinction. You dont have to worry about coyotes and mountain lions.

Here in the US its not hard to be an hour from any police or hospital. Your experience provides no context here and is inadequate to serve as a point of reference.

Can be the same here, I'd phone a mate who is close before ringing 999 if I needed help with a violent situation.
999 would be my second phone call.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I have a potential solution, but i don't know if it'll work. But at least its trying something different: lets figure out what has changed since the late 80's that has created this problem. Once we figure that out, then we address it.

It seems that before we degrade the rights of Americans any further, we should at least try to look at it from a new angle.

Seems fair, mental health appears to be a major contributor.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

First sentence, it was answered. Nice try.

Read closely and you might see other sentences that are notable for addressing the actual problem. Hint: second paragraph, second sentence.

And the fifth paragraph was a wonderful demonstration of prognostic abilities even if I do say so myself. But as always, enjoy.

Nobody mentioning America's very own intelligence agencies have a history of aiding and abetting shootings here.

We have proof of traitors in high offices.

Every time one of these happens it's the same thing. It's the guns, no it's mental health....

It's the fox watching the hen house that is the real problem. If we had defense agencies that truly cared to protect America/American people many of these shootings would be prevented before the first shot was fired.

How would those screaming "give up your guns!" respond if it was clearly true that the FBI/CIA etc are helping these happen?? Would it make you pause and think a moment? Maybe re-frame your perspective on what is the best course of action?

originally posted by: GafferUK1981

Proper policing would reduce the numbers even further.

I had to make an account to say this because this is the first thing that needs to happen before any guns are removed from the citizens. Policing/government is our number one issue, don't blame guns. It's really not the guns, its the way # is run. It's too late to take everyones guns, its 2018, we print them now. The criminals (ones who kill themselves after their massacre) don't care about a death/life penalty. I always laugh at the ones who say take the guns, great idea, but its too late for that, people can make all that # at home, even down to buying an unfinished receiver. I want to hear real answers other than take the guns or arm everyone. The problem is, the problems are trying to be solved by people who don't exactly understand the situation all in the meanwhile it is being fueled by TPTB.

originally posted by: OwenHaydn
Anyway, how many more children have to die before the USA realises that their current gun laws aren't working!?

Look, figure it out: We have a protected constitutional right to keep and bear arms. What people do illegally with that right (which, of course, negates the right when they do something illegally with it) is not something that can be completely controlled.

I've run the numbers on the statistics too many times to do it again, but suffice it to say that, in a nation with an estimated more than 350-million firearms in circulation and an average of 10,000 non-suicide deaths by gun per year, I think that we're doing fine with the ratio of murderous criminals to law-abiding gun owners.

And in case math is hard: 10,000 / 350,000,000 = 0.0029%

0.0029% of firearms in the U.S. are used to illegally kill someone in an average year.

Let that sink in: Three-thousandths of one percent.

Once that sinks in, then realize that many of these killings occur in places that have laws against people carrying firearms on the property or in the building.

So, yes, I would agree that we have problems with gun laws, just not in the way that you think that we do.

You don't have to see why banning semi- and fully-automatic weapons--the latter of which is already banned for production and ownership and sell except with a very expensive license--because you don't seem to know anything about firearms or a life where owning them is a right.

I mean, you claim that gun ownership is akin to an "extension of my manhood"--you're already woefully ignorant on the topic at hand.

How could you understand?

But, sure, whatever you non-Americans say...it MUST just be the guns first and foremost.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Consequently, it began shortly after GHW Bush left office.

Massive CIA psy-ops program, then?

As American as apple pie

We will not give up guns.
This guy should have been caught before this. The FBI dropped the ball, like they tend to do.

Mental illness is the problem and the meds given, add a parent that lets their child play violent video games as much as they want and allows mentally ill child obtain a gun and, in the case of Lanza's mom even buying the guns.

I don't understand Britain's infatuation with royalty, but I would never tell y'all how to handle yall's business.

originally posted by: Martin75Luckily your opinion here does not matter

great debating technique

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Until there is an actual explanation, nothing is off the table.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

This has always been a funny argument to me. I have had this discussion with Englishmen before. The answer to all of your questions about why we have so many guns, the answer is the same reason as to why England has a 3 times higher contact crimes rate. We like to have the ability to defend ourselves. As a matter of fact, didn't the Lend-Lease Act save England from becoming Germany some years back. I guess it is a good thing that the U.S. had so many guns to give to you. We were given the rights we have by our founding fathers because they saw the way the English system worked so well. (Sarcasm)

a reply to: GafferUK1981

Really, is that why YOUR OWN COUNTRY has seen an increase in crimes with firearms since your "bans on firearms"?... Year after year gullible people like yourself were claiming "this increase is only temporary, eventually you will see it will become better"... Yet here we are, over 20 years later and crimes with guns in your nation are far worse... This is something that apparently leftists around the world are ignorant about... CRIMINALS DON'T FOLLOW LAWS... That's why they are criminals...

People who are truly crazy or evil will find ways to commit their crimes. I am not talking about the idiotic claim from the left that "having conservative values equals to being mentally unstable or insane"... If you look at countries like China, where regular citizens are not allowed firearms at all, insane people have resorted to commit their murders with other weapons, and if you don't think that knives, or other "tools" can be as effective or even worse than firearms you obviously haven't been paying attention... Insane people have resorted to locking people in buildings and setting it on fire, or locking the building and using knives or other white weapons to commit mass murders...

We are hearing again calls from "authoritarians all around the world" calling for banning firearms in the U.S., or not allowing people to have firearms if they are deemed as "mentally unstable". The only problem is that other leftwing dictatorships, including the NAZIS, labeled people as "mentally unstable, a threat to the nation and the collective, etc, etc simply for not adhering to the insane leftwing ideology in that dictatorship... We have seen the left in the U.S. doing the same thing for the past few years...

Heck, we even had leftwing psychiatrists claim that President Trump is mentally unstable for having conservative values, or for wanting an extension of 90 days to try to properly verify immigrants from Muslim nations where radical Islam is in control... Or for wanting to control illegal immigration from south of the border, which the left have used to claim President Trump and his supporters must be racists, but these same leftwing morons don't claim that Mexico is racist for deporting illegal immigrants and trying to control illegal immigration into Mexico...

I find it ironic how noone is laying the blame on the FBI when the higher ups were more concerned trying to claim that "President Trump colluded with the Russians" than actually trying to stop truly insane people like this monster who murdered students, despite the fact that there were several red flags about this same monster and the FBI was alerted several times about him even by name...

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: CulturalResilience

I took in the rest of your comment and what it meant. It didn't convince me. It told me that you, like many Americans say England when what you actually mean is Great Britain.

So you comprhended what I meant, but want to quibble over the details and still avoid the main points. Understood.

If reality doesn't convince you, then there's nothing anyone can do.

Best regards.

Your reply to my original comment did not convince me that the point about the default mindset of the US citizens was not accurate. Your statement about reality has succeeded in killing this particular exchange, but it has not made or reinforced your argument.

Best wishes to you also.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.

a reply to: GafferUK1981

First off, please do not imply that us Americans don't mind our children being killed and we're to stubborn to succumb to gun control. I think that is the most offensive thing stated in this entire thread. Most of us agree, this isn't a Rambo, or a Die Hard movie. We're not all out to kill people to be heroes. Here is what people forget when they argue gun control. We have a very large neighboring country that is smuggling tons of guns in to be distributed to gangs/cartel etc. and as far as I am aware, Britain doesn't have this issue. Also America is enormous, and many members have stated, a lot of us live in rural parts of the country where we don't have police responding within a few minutes, but sometimes 20 to 30, or even more. I had to kill a black bear just two years ago for eyeballing my children and mistaking them for dinner. I tried non lethal methods first, like ammonia on the garbage, locking garbage up in the shed (until he ripped the shed door off to get to it) then the final straw was when my girlfriend was stuck in the car with my kids because the bear wouldn't let her out. Needless to say, he never came back after that night.

Here's the thing, large cities are going to have issues, too hard to keep that many people in line, but you know, we don't often have these issues in the smaller towns. You disrespect someone in my town, you might get a broken jaw, and if you're lucky, a fat lip, but if you apologize, we'll dust you off and buy you a beer. People don't just go around shooting one another like a wild west movie. No one is coming to my county fair with a gun and aiming it at civilians. Can you guess why? Because most of us rednecks, cowboys, or hillbillies have a gun nearby. Criminals are cowards, they prey on those who cannot protect themselves, just like any wild predator, they will separate the heard and pick off the young.

When I was young, I was taught to handle guns safely and that they were a tool, and very dangerous if used incorrectly. Never once have I aimed a gun at a fellow human. I think gun safety and education at a young age is key. If we are taught to respect them, as a child would a car, then I think we would see better results. Parents leave their car keys on the counter all the time, and most kids don't pick them up, drive off with the car and run down people because their depression meds aren't working correctly. The problem is, as we've gotten more progressive, we've forgotten some of our core values as a country, and now most liberals can't even hear the word gun in a sentence without having convulsions, so not all kids are taught gun safety, and they become very curious about guns once they realize their parents have been sheltering them.

I for one feel safe in America, I know that if something happens in my neck of the woods, there is support from my community and we all have each others backs. We don't rely on police to save us, we take care of our own. You should try it sometime, I'm proud to be an American, and I'm proud of my community.
I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, this is all just my opinion. We are all saddened by the loss in Florida, and my thoughts and prayers go out to them.