Divided

... and the only solution

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. We have certain experiences, personalities, private lifes and access to varrying styles and levels of education and therefore entirely different opinions.
But we are social beings too, at some point we want to belong and choose a team, a group, be it inside family, or outside with friends, or interest groups. At some point we pick where we want to belong, or become a loner that is also an option and can be identified as a group.

But in that group you also have seperate people, which ultimately won't agree on every point of the "web of opinions" every individual holds.
That's entirely natural. We can't change that. So we try to pick certain people which make themselves heard in the arena of the group above the me-only member identity club. Be it musicians, politicians, any kind of public figure, almost everybody has a speaker.
Elon Musk, maybe Timberlake, Brady, Trump, Oprah, ...
Problem is they also have a group identification. Always. But often with a cause, an achievement, a mission, ...
And bamm! tribalism has swallowed you.
That's why to overcome division we have to stop expecting that a compromise means people with opinions other than me will go away after they lost an election, a competition, a personal evaluation, what-have-you.
Because that's everybody, including my hero.
The root of everything bad is when people start submitting their sovereignity behind one speaker.

Because in all really deadly conflicts the group identity is no free choice. The only way to overcome that is freedom. Freedom means I can live like I want and most importantly say whatever I want whenever I want to whoever I want.
Personally I feel great horror when I see Nazi symbols. That is a group I never would want to be a part of.
But I was friends with people who were "fans", went through a phase where they identified with that group. Believe it or not, they were pleasant, interesting, funny and had a very own identity besides that.

What I am trying to say is, the peacefull resolution of all lethal conflicts can be achieved if we allow individual freedom to happen to everybody and only the individual can do that.
Love Trump/ Hate Trump
Brexit / Remain
Palestine / Israel
Patriots / Eagles
None of those group identifies should keep two people who cross paths from having a friendly chat and a drink with eachother.

a reply to: Peeple

All we have to do is have people willing to admit they could be wrong and all is solved.

And I can't be convinced otherwise.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

"Agree to disagree.." because "wrong" already includes a judgement. At what point can your opinion be proven "false"? When it's the official version of the state of things?

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: Peeple

All we have to do is have people willing to admit they could be wrong and all is solved.

And I can't be convinced otherwise.

And there lies the problem. Right and wrong are subjective, and based purely on perspective.

No solution there.

Dig.

Groupthink is the individuality killer.

BEWARE: Groupthink wielded by 'higher powers' is true bonafide mind control. The realest of the real. No matter how fake their BS is.

a reply to: Peeple



Most of those You listed have 'division' built into its mechanics. Take the SuperBowl™ for instance, it will be awfully tough for folks who live vicariously through their 'hometown team' and explain to them that instead of betting money and wanting their bet to stomp their opponents into the dirt. that they instead focus on the beautiful aesthetics of the contest. My point is that Sport in itself is designed to have conflict so that isn't a very good example, but on the other instances You mentioned, I absolutely agree. Hence My tagline of "There is no 'good' or 'bad' there just "is". This eliminates Me having to 'compare' What could be 'good' for Me, could very well be a 'non-positive' for the "Other Me". No two people have the same experiences and those experiences shape how one person may react..

How will You ever 'kill the ego'? After the ego is slain I'd recommend that 'greed' is then eliminated..

I wish You, the 'other Me', the bestest of luck..

Stay Hydrated...

a reply to: Peeple



I also frequent a bass fishing website. You ought to see the arguments that jump up o'er there, things as infantile as which brand bass boat someone fishes out of, which veh. tows that boat, e.g. Ford vs. Chevy. Would it surprise You that some folks then 'defend that brand'?? When someone asks which boat is 'the best'? (like You could actually differentiate them) and posters will pump up their boat brand...

Let Me know if You want to visit the site and I'll forward the 411... It is comical up to a point and then, well, kinda sad.

Stay Hydrated...

originally posted by: JimNasium

Most of those You listed have 'division' built into its mechanics.

All human beings, except for sociopaths perhaps, have it built into their DNA. I refer to it as the 'primal tribal urge'. It's one amongst many 'primal urges'. Its instinctual. Its the foundation of all civilization, the glue that holds us together. It's also the basis of all division, the driving force behind all dehumanization and warfare.

It's not to be taken lightly, understanding it our nature not to be ignored, for its the greatest method of our being manipulated.

It shouldnt be loathed either, its something we need. Which I why I insist we know it well so that we arent manipulated by it to come to loathe it. Instead we should all cook / eat / enjoy all the worlds exotic foods, and music, etc modes to appreciate all that we are as human beings (and live a richer life no less), while doing our own thing when it makes sense, but not isolating ourselves /selling our 'souls' when a group tells us to, live by karma even if not believe in it as an actual 'thing', not being hypocritical losers (which is what group identity drives EVERYONE to become monsters of), and so on.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

"Agree to disagree.." because "wrong" already includes a judgement. At what point can your opinion be proven "false"? When it's the official version of the state of things?

True, but it's our natural instinct to pass judgement. We can't escape it.
And the only way we can validate our judgement is from the group.

I don't mean to speak in riddles here but it's kind of an interesting paradox.
Bringing it back to the OP, I'm with you and totally agree individualism is the way to go.

What should we call ourselves?

a reply to: Peeple

But we are social beings too, at some point we want to belong and choose a team, a group, be it inside family, or outside with friends, or interest groups. At some point we pick where we want to belong, or become a loner that is also an option and can be identified as a group.

The conditioning worked on you.

"Pick a side" is the training we have all received. Thats why we are all divided.

It began a long time ago on a schoolyard when they said, Lets play, pick teams.

Love Trump/ Hate Trump
Brexit / Remain
Palestine / Israel
Patriots / Eagles

So we ignore
Truth/Lies
HistoryFantasy
Right/Wrong
And Winners / Losers

Say again
That does not compute...

a reply to: Peeple

What if you dislike both the patriots and the eagles????

a reply to: Peeple

So, boiling your argument down to a statement possessed of some brevity...

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and we need to agree to disagree.

That is a very noble position to take, and I applaud you for it. However, I can see a few problems with it.

When you compromise between two positions, for the benefit of all, this idealism works perfectly, makes better things happen than nearly all the alternatives to it. However, there are circumstances where compromising between two positions is unhealthy.

For example, if you hold a position that states that gravity is a property of mass carrying objects, and someone else does not, simply agreeing to disagree will have ramifications, serious ones, especially if you base building codes and so on, on the compromise, not the factually correct observation of reality which states categorically, that gravity is most definitely a thing we need to pay attention to.

If you agree to disagree on matters pertaining to vaccination and other medical treatments, rather than solely applying scientific awareness to the problems pertaining to medical science, then what you get is a situation where people who are fundamentally incorrect about EVERY aspect of the biological and immunological ramifications of decision making, are an intrinsic part of deciding how to deploy such resources in those fields as are within the grasp of a given society. This, of course, is utterly idiotic, and no sensible individual would sanction such a method, for deciding such important matters.

If you agree to disagree on matters like healthcare, child care, corporate power and so on and so forth, then what you will get, rather than choices and ways forward based on what is ACTUALLY happening in a country, you will get a situation where the informed persons get to do half as much good as they could, and those whose willful ignorance, greed and bigotry are only permitted to do half as much harm.

You see, reality is not subjective, it is objective. Things are a certain way, they are not another. Up is up, regardless of you knowing which is which at the time of asking. You can prove this to yourself by throwing yourself off a boat with your eyes shut and a scuba set on, and sinking yourself, then spinning yourself around a few times, then opening your eyes. If you fell deep enough, there is no way to tell which way is actually up, unless you can see the sea floor. But, swim in the wrong direction long enough, and you will either reach the bottom or run out of air and die. Only swimming in the correct direction, will get you back to the surface before your tank runs empty. Basing ones way forward ONLY on what is REAL therefore, not what is suspected, not what is assumed, but only what is KNOWN to be true, is the only way to ensure the most amount of success, the least amount of failure. When that obvious truth is applied to the scale of nations, the stakes become all the higher, and the more important it is to banish ANY idea that does not clearly come from a mind which is aware of all the FACTS pertaining to a matter, from the debate table, and any mind which consistently refuses to observe and correctly comprehend reality, from the discussion entirely.

The stakes are high, its the life or death of millions upon millions of human beings, both in a given nation, and the world at large, and people here want to allow compromises between those who know what they are talking about, and those who do not know their own buttholes from their elbows? I CANNOT agree to disagree, because the needs of human beings are based in reality, not imagination, not opinion, no other thing. Reality is more important than these concepts of trying to get along in peace, and not being "difficult" to work with.

When one group have consistently shown their ideas to come from a certain, informed point of view which, instead of being formed of propagandist twaddle, is actually made up of observable fact, and another group have consistently demonstrated their total unwillingness to accept any of the evidence reality places before them, of exactly how skewed and factually incorrect their positions are on... EVERYTHING, then no, compromise should not be possible. Reality and those who correctly understand it, MUST dominate the debates, discussions, and indeed the conclusions of ALL parties, groups, ideals and ideas, and that is not what is happening now. What is happening now is the opposite.

Fact: There is only reality, and everything else besides it.

Fact: Accepting anything other than reality as the guidestone by which one navigates the future, may be acceptable on a personal level, but should be impermissible when it comes to community or national leadership.

Fact: Compromise in the face of reality is not noble or just. Insisting on basing all action and word upon reality and only reality, is the only noble way forward, since anything else damages the people on whose behalf choices are made, their futures, their health, their way of life, their ability to continue to live at all.

Reality does not give a damn what opinions crop up, and it is reality, not opinion, that shapes how our choices are going to effect the history of the world. Those who accept and understand this, and behave as if they have understood and accepted it, are the only ones who ought to be making any moves in this era. We are too old a species to still be clinging to tribalist, phallus waving lunatics with god complexes.

a reply to: TrueBrit

But in what scenario would Joe Anybody be in charge of calculating the fuel consumption of a space rocket?
We have to differenciate between what we disagree on. Because what we consider a fact is after all just what has been tested and approved by the majority of people with experience in that field.
Flat Earth, hollow Earth, all kinds of disagreeing with the consensus is ultimately a sign of mistrust.
And why not at some point there is no reality there is only fiction.
He said she said.
As long as the raft carries the weight of the majority we are good.

a reply to: Peeple

In what scenario?

United States Senate Commerce Subcommittee on Space, Science, and Competitiveness...

First problem, space and science matters should be kept away from the sort of people whose job it is to think about commerce or competitiveness. Scientific pursuits are supposed to be made for the sheer hell of it, just to find out what happens, not for the purpose of making nations more or less competitive, or for commercial reasons. Thats the first important point here. So, not only is this subcommittee built incorrectly, but there is at least one name on that subcommittee, who has no business commenting on matters scientific, what so ever.

Ted "Science Denying Luddite" Cruz.

Science may not be popular with some people in the USA, but that does not mean that those people deserve representation on a subcommittee whose job is to administrate matters scientific, decide budgets for the next few decades of scientific research and space exploration! People who hate and distrust science should be NO WHERE DAMNED WELL NEAR THAT SUBCOMMITTEE!

There is an awful lot of fiction out there, but reality is static, remains reality regardless of the arguments ranged against it, and yes, some people happen to be right about what reality is, and some are very wrong. When they are wrong, they should not be eligible to make decisions which affect the future, its really very simple! If you want a future where the air is even breathable any more, you cannot allow nitwits and lollygagging knuckle draggers near the decision making!

a reply to: TrueBrit

That was very specific. How did he get into that comittee?

a reply to: Peeple

I would love to know that. I know he got shuffled in after the GOP won some seats in a Congressional election, in 2015, but as to who pointed him in that direction, and said "Go! Bring your total lack of respect for science to the heathens at NASA" , I have no idea, but whoever it was wants bloody well shooting.

I have five electric Gibson guitars but everybody thinks of me as a Strat guy! I was not always so good with money and only had one guitar (!!! You look in my room and it looks like back stage at Pearl Jam or something!!). I love my strat, old Blue! She's been with me through thick and thin, to hell and back again! She even spent a year in somebody's back shed and never said a word. When I pick her up she is like a cat! That is the guitar everybody remembers me by!!

Weird, I haven't spoke of old blue in a while! There is something so wonderful and great about beating the sh# out of my Gibson Explorer! But in everybody's mind, I'm still that strat guy!

I guess what I am saying is that sometimes it is not really our choice! "I'll always be that no good Chambers kid. That thief Chris Chambers! That loser! Even when I saw her take the money!"

Stereotypes are insidious. The "group think" the "auto pilot" mode view of the world. Did you know that my first, sit down, grown up talk, with my mother, was about stereotypes? I said, "Why is that bear family named 'Berenstein'? The mom doesn't even look Jewish!" Instead of a spanking, I learned about the mean, old world that day and that one day I would be a part of it. That is also why, to this day, I refuse the "stain" name. I would not be who I am without that talk.

That is where I would start! If an idiot like me can learn something then there is hope that everybody else can too!

Oddly enough, I saw a girl I knew all the way back in elementary school (8, 9, or 10 yeas old) the other day. We went to same school. We grew up in the same town. We know the same people. She gave me a great big hug without any need to explain or say anything. Now that is the meaning of "home town" without any judgement or negative connotations. I know people back there, the Chris Chambers of my town, who did not get out. Even wear the same style of clothes!

Life is amazing when you are not being all b1tchy and judgmental about this that and the other! Or burdened by yoke stereotypes (either being one or using one).

Divided we fall...

originally posted by: intrptr
The conditioning worked on you.

"Pick a side" is the training we have all received. Thats why we are all divided.
It began a long time ago on a schoolyard when they said, Lets play, pick teams.

Most 'games' need a team?

To win you have to be competitive.....

There are no supporters unless they pick aside to support....

Without competition there is no improvement ......

We all 'pick' or 'choose' our friends consciously or unconsciously.


Toddlers in play groups come together through choice, sometimes parents

try to push their children toward the children of their friends .... it doesn't

work even when very young the choice of company is instinctive.

originally posted by: shooterbrody

What if you dislike both the patriots and the eagles????

You can be indifferent to some one/thing without dislike or hate.

I am always suspicious of people who 'love' every one/thing ....