Machine Economy vs. Universal Basic Income

originally posted by: projectvxn
Money can come from any production or service.

To be fair, the same can be said even with a UBI.

I think you're getting stuck in some of the illustrative concepts ideas I used. I obviously have no crystal ball and cannot predict where the economy will go in the future.

That is why I pointed out that you said that there would be no work to be done (production or service). We have to agree that there is something to allow people to earn credits or there isn't.

As far as who do you buy raw materials from? Its a decentralized economic model concept, you buy it from whoever has it for sale.

So it will be no different than today. Big corp processes the raw materials and then it goes through many hands, with an increase in price at each step, until you buy it from your outlet of choice.

We come back to the same question, is there something to do to earn credits? If not, then the credits will have to be handed out for doing nothing.

a reply to: daskakik

That is why I pointed out that you said that there would be no work to be done (production or service). We have to agree that there is something to allow people to earn credits or there isn't.

This is not to say that people would have nothing to buy or sell. When 98% of professions are automated, what is left? Human creativity and innovation won't stop because we automated the vast majority of tasks. There will still be people, far into the future, that will be master craftsmen, master artists, master musicians, and more. These areas of life take on meaning and utility in ways entirely too numerous to list in a post on ATS, and their economic impact on human history is nothing to scoff at.

In some form or another, there will always be economic demand for human creativity. You can only go so far with technology, and while I believe we can automate the market economy, I do not know what that transition period will look like.

I'm almost done with my paper, and you have given a whole lot to chew on as a result of our conversation. I still contend that the UBI, as a solution, would be disastrous for human freedom, and may even cause a world war.

I may be able to see down the road, but I don't know what's going to jump out in front of me. I have no idea what twists and turn humanity will take, or if we will even survive to see this concept come true, or simply die as my well-researched science fiction fantasy.

Only so much can be automated and the more we do the more dependent all of us will become on these damnable machines.
We actually have a choice in all this and that is either a mechanized dystopia or a simpler, less consumer-intensive society. I'm afraid most people have already bought in to the "all new tech is good tech" ideal and can't conceive giving any of their conveniences up. It is an inevitable problem for the developed world and no one is even thinking about how it will all fall out on the undeveloped places on Earth.

Very thought-provoking OP vxn

I think it's time to revisit the concept of the UBI. To give everyone in the US 30,000 dollars would cost about 9 trillion dollars. Screams are raised: Communism! Inflationary!

Except US market stimulus per year is edging into that neighborhood. How come it's inflationary communism when it goes to the people, but just "stimulus" when it goes to Wall Street? Why not direct it at the people, who really are too big to fail, rather than companies that would be culled if nature took it's course?

Experiments are underway elsewhere....

a reply to: Never Despise

I have to agree.

This thread isn't really reflective of my updated views on the UBI.

a reply to: projectvxn

Nice to see you back and I for one would be interested to hear your new thoughts. This was a thoughtful and well-presented thread that deserves a dusting-off IMHO.

a reply to: Never Despise

I agree.

There are still major issues with the UBI. Most of the experiments talked about in this thread have been canceled or have failed somehow.

But there are also UBI schemes that have been extremely successful and should be looked at seriously. Alaska's oil-based UBI comes to mind.

BTW this is the updated thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: projectvxn

I do not know what that transition period will look like.

Is it possible the transition is happening now? Way too much weirdness happening at once now.

a reply to: fernalley

Yeah that's very possible.

Andrew Yang was saying that the UBI could make a successful debut because of COVID19. Couple that with how many have lost their jobs and the obscene profits the Bezos of the world have made since the start of the pandemic and you have a too heavy economy and no other way to flatten it other than a UBI.

a reply to: projectvxn

Funny that... they destroyed capitalism with their own greed. Or on purpose

a reply to: fernalley

I don't think capitalism has been destroyed. I think it can be deeply changed into something that has less consequence on us in our daily lives.

It may become a ubiquitous underlying process of society, like the sewer system or the power grid. Seems technology is dragging us into compliance with this dynamic.

We have to figure out how to do that without crapping all over basic human freedom or outright ignoring the destitution of humanity.