The Existence of Free Will

The matter of Free Will vs. Determinism is a crucial aspect of understanding the nature of human existence. The argument can be reduced to this: Are we ultimately responsible for our choices, our actions, for shaping our own thoughts, life, and destiny, or are we (as according to Edgar Allan Poe’s dark poem The Conqueror Worm)

Mimes, in the form of God on high,
Mutter and mumble low,
And hither and thither fly—
Mere puppets they, who come and go
At bidding of vast formless things
That shift the scenery to and fro,
Flapping from out their Condor wings
Invisible Wo!

The Atlantic article linked below sites studies by Benjamin Libet which pointed to a build up in electrical activity that precipitates the conscious decision, rather than resulting from it, and examples such as a brain tumor or similar trauma being linked to transforming a "normal" brain into that of a murderer to bolster the cause of determinism.
www.theatlantic.com...
Einstein was famously quoted as saying "God does not play dice with the universe." (in reference to quantum mechanics) and
"I am a determinist. I do not believe in free will. Jews believe in free will. They believe man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine. In that respect I am not a Jew"

Here's an interesting clip of Michio Kaku refuting Einstein's determinism:


In my own opinion, we are marvelous beings capable of creating and shaping our own destinies. We are equipped with tremendous power which could be harnessed for great change, whether that be for better or worse. Every choice we make acts as something like a tuning fork, turning our divine self closer to or further away from the Source (God, Love, however you want to describe this). Free will has nothing to do with our desires/impulses, but rather with how we react to them.

Paradoxically, it seems to be that in order to free one's self from the "bidding of vast formless things", one must submit to the will of something greater than the self, and in that sense submission (to God's will, imo, which can be reduced to these two main tenets: "Love your God with all of your heart, Love your neighbor as you love yourself.") can be viewed as the ultimate exercise of our free will.

Thank you for reading!
I'd love to hear your take on the matter of free will, any and all respectful discussion is welcome!

Hope you have a great day!!!

a reply to: zosimov

Good thread. I've always found this an interesting subject.
Some behavioral researchers think that we don't have as much free will as we like to think, and that we're almost 'helplessly' controlled by our unconscious minds.

Every choice we make acts as something like a tuning fork, turning our divine self closer to or further away from the Source (God, Love, however you want to describe this). Free will has nothing to do with our desires/impulses, but rather with how we react to them.

I read an article in a science magazine a while ago that was just riveting. The author spoke of "The Logos".
The divine reason. The Word of God. They said that there are ancient texts that when translated, revealed
divine laws concerning 'free will'. Basically, that doing as we pleased actually led to a sort of enslavement of the mind, and spirit, whereas exercising tremendous self-discipline led to freedom. An interesting paradox of sorts. The more disciplined you are, the less bound and restricted you become

originally posted by: ColeYounger


I read an article in a science magazine a while ago that was just riveting. The author spoke of "The Logos".
The divine reason. The Word of God. They said that there are ancient texts that when translated, revealed
divine laws concerning 'free will'. Basically, that doing as we pleased actually led to a sort of enslavement of the mind, and spirit, whereas exercising tremendous self-discipline led to freedom. An interesting paradox of sorts. The more disciplined you are, the less bound and restricted you become.

I just had to bold this... As odd as it sounds, it really resonates as truth! Thanks for sharing that wonderful insight!

a reply to: zosimov

I'd love to hear your take on the matter of free will, any and all respectful discussion is welcome!

One is always free to choose; therefore free will is a fact. Insofar as determinism is concerned, whatever one chooses was what was meant to happen; therefore determinism is, in essence, also a fact, in being determined by one's ultimate choice.

I was going to add...It was said that some of these texts spoke of knights or 'men of old'. I'm paraphrasing this now.
It said something to the effect that they practiced discipline that the average person couldn't even conceive, much less practice. This led them to do the right thing in nearly any situation. It became this tremendous power that helped guide them.

a reply to: Liquesence

Well said, can't argue with that!

a reply to: ColeYounger

Fascinating. Thank you for more food for thought.

a reply to: zosimov

I just had to bold this... As odd as it sounds, it really resonates as truth!

Much like quantum mechanics stifles our intuition so too does Gods will for us . We take it or can take it as a kind of dictatorship but what it really does is frees us from the world and especially from ourselves . Sin is a mystery but its a fact like quantum mechanics .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: zosimov

what it really does is frees us from the world and especially from ourselves

Well put. It would be hard to deny that so many of our bad choices are self-defeating.

Thanks for the insights!

a reply to: ColeYounger

The more disciplined you are, the less bound and restricted you become

Your words immediately made me think how relevant they are to meditation. The quieter you become, the greater your perception...

a reply to: zosimov

There is no free will, everything is deterministic in my opinion and from my research over the years. Your brain is simply a data acquisition and control system linked by unknown technology to the real you, someplace else. You have no control over the meat puppet you are riding in, we are simply observers in a 4 dimensional virtual reality governed by laws we are taught from the day we are injected. These laws consume our subjective perception of our "reality" and to operate contrary to these laws is likely not possible. Every system has safeguards and failsafes, in our case potentially madness and death.

This might be some kind of ride like a roller coaster, it may be a prison to occupy consciousness or it might be a historical simulation branching into multiple "what if" additional simulations to examine how we got from A to B. I would like to think it's a ride, but unfortunately it looks more like a prison.

We can't know for sure what it is we reside within, as we are controlled by the same system we attempt to measure and analyze. I ran into this exact problem when trying to measure gravity waves using conventional interferometry. The waves are so large, they compress and expand surrounding space-time, which proportionally changes all measuring devices and distances within the gravity wave resulting in zero change over time.

I'd really like to see some proofs of free will, there's a non-zero probability free will exits, but it appears infinitely small. The weight of evidence appears to side with determinism. Regardless, you can't know the truth until you are outside and conscious of the system that has been your ride, prison or simulation.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

We can't know for sure what it is we reside within, as we are controlled by the same system we attempt to measure and analyze.

This poses a major impediment in any study/philosophy of mind. Thank you for weighing in with an interesting response!

a reply to: zosimov

To have free will, you would have to be able to prevent control of your meat puppet by outside sources. You might be hungry, gamma radiation from space that inadvertently targets your brain, might flip the electrochemical response to you're not hungry, or it might put you into a murderous rage. Electromagnetic radiation from local sources could be changing the way your "brain" operates and the resulting decisions you think you make. Too many ifs and what-ifs for free will.

However, in a deterministic system, all of these events and situations are accounted for, which simplifies my view of the system, anyway. They are just part of the program and the development over time of the virtual system. In our limited view governed by our physical laws, we "see" this construct as reality. However, to an entity residing in another dimension or outside the system, our "reality" might be nothing more than a vcr tape or computer program.

Like I said, we can't know until we are outside of the system, so we can't understand what it actually is. I was waiting to see a bit firmer stance on religion coming up, but it hasn't. If God is all powerful, omnipotent, knows what was, what is and what will be, it means an entity knows our entire existence, hence to have that knowledge is the predicate of knowledge of all future events. The only way that is probable is if this "reality" construct is deterministic. So even religion agrees we live in a deterministic reality out one side of their faces and claim free will out the other, but that's part of the scam. Having an omnipotent God and free will are mutually exclusive, there must be one or the other.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: zosimov
I haven’t been here in over a year. I signed in to try and find someone to talk to. I’m kinda freaking out I guess you would say .. I’m going through ascension and I don’t know if this is even the right thread to be in .. but even though I feel anxious I know everything is going to be okay. Everything is unfolding perfectly for me..
-Nat
Ps-nice thread I believe in free will and we shape our lives

Free will is a fact, but we decide based on our own actions and opinions how free we want to be.
Example: If I made a make a choice I'm bound to that choice.

Of course we can change over time, but still we are bound only to ourselves.

"You are slave of what you say, but lord of what you don't.

originally posted by: natalia
but even though I feel anxious I know everything is going to be okay. Everything is unfolding perfectly for me..

My dear, reading your post made me think of this beautiful little book, The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence, perhaps you will enjoy- here's a link to on online pdf:
www.orthodoxebooks.org...

Wishing you all the best!

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle


Like I said, we can't know until we are outside of the system, so we can't understand what it actually is. I was waiting to see a bit firmer stance on religion coming up, but it hasn't. If God is all powerful, omnipotent, knows what was, what is and what will be, it means an entity knows our entire existence, hence to have that knowledge is the predicate of knowledge of all future events. The only way that is probable is if this "reality" construct is deterministic. So even religion agrees we live in a deterministic reality out one side of their faces and claim free will out the other, but that's part of the scam. Having an omnipotent God and free will are mutually exclusive, there must be one or the other.

Cheers - Dave

Okay, you brought up one of those big questions, predestination vs free will.

The question to consider there would be
Is having knowledge of a future event the same as causing said event?

I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive (aside from the blatant semantic problem with the word predestined, I'd prefer the term foreknown). An omnipotent God could know what choice we are about to make without having any impact on it.

Thank you for the interesting discussion!!

a reply to: bobs_uruncle


I think there can be an omnipotent God and free will at the same time.
Even when He can do whatever He wants.
Everything needs order. We need order, otherwise our lives will be disastrous. So God Himself, accept that reality about Him.
And creates order from chaos. And decided to just keep an eye on it. So He is neither good or bad, He is just fair.

"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done"

The Lord's Prayer indicates that Gods will is not done, here on earth.
The prayer is that it will be done.
Love must offer the other person a choice, otherwise it's slavery.
Can God be sovereign and also offer free will, that is love
We are called to choose, choose God or not
That's free will.

That's my take

I've always looked at it this way:

God may know. It says He is alpha and omega, beginning and end, and if that's so, then He exists outside of time. His existence isn't linear as we know existence.

It's true He may know what you or I are going to choose to do from one second to the next and how our lives play out.

But, the key is that you and I do not know. We are anchored on a linear time scale. It is not given to us to know what will happen from one second to the next, and if we go through life believing that what will be will be no matter what we do or no, then no force out there will magically move us to make it happen.

You believe that you are predestined to become fabulously wealthy ... or damned to hell? Fine. Go ahead and sit there on your computer chair and do nothing. Wait for fate to materialize anyhow with no input from you. Good luck. Might as well say that since God can see who will win the Super Bowl, there is no sense in even playing any games, right? Obviously the winner will materialize because it's all pre-determined.

Nope because we, none of us know what our futures our and God isn't telling, then as far as we're concerned, we have free will. Every choice you make is truly a choice because you don't know the outcome.

Another way to look at it is to write a Choose Your Own Adventure book. Has anyone else ever done that? The author has to plan out every option, story, twist and turn, but the reader doesn't know how any of it turns out.