Church of Satan and The Law of Karma?

I have been reading what information I can find here about Satanism and I read lots of stuff off the Church of Satan page as well. I have come to understand that Church of Satan-ists claim their form of 'Satanism' is more like 'Humanism'. Now, I'm all for the idea of self-empowerment, but I do have a few questions for anyone who is in the know about the matter.

1: How does the Law of Karma fall upon the ears of Satanists? Do they reject it as just so much religio-babble about past lives?

2: Do adherents to Anton Lavey's Church of Satan believe in an afterlife where they are held accountable for their acts on Earth? If no, then would they agree that "This life is all there is."?

3: Where does 'mercy' rank in the mind of a CoS follower? Is 'mercy' a sign of weakness and therefore to be purged from one's mind?

4: Are there actually Chaplains of the Church of Satan in the US military? What about other global military forces?

5: Are there some Satanists who see magickal practice as too dangerous to be pursued, or is it the sort of thing every Church devotee is encouraged to look into? (I ask because magick freaks me out and I cannot see myself ever wanting to converse with demons, etc)

Personally I believe in karma, reincarnation and the efficacy of love/light, but that's me. I'd just like to see if there are any actual Satanists or CoS devotees on ATS who can clarify these questions for me.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

1: How does the Law of Karma fall upon the ears of Satanists? Do they reject it as just so much religio-babble about past lives?

No karma - no divine retribution. Just personal responsibility and indulgence.

2: Do adherents to Anton Lavey's Church of Satan believe in an afterlife where they are held accountable for their acts on Earth? If no, then would they agree that "This life is all there is."?

I think of Satanism as more of a philosophy with the emphasis on this life. You mentioned "held responsible" - this implies that followers of Levay do something that is objectionable - why?

3: Where does 'mercy' rank in the mind of a CoS follower? Is 'mercy' a sign of weakness and therefore to be purged from one's mind?

Part of the overall philosophy is personal responsibility - therefore mercy would not be necessary since you would never harm anyone unless harmed.

4: Are there actually Chaplains of the Church of Satan in the US military? What about other global military forces?

I do know that the Chaplain's Armed Services handbook does include the Church of Satan - most military chaplains would be familiar with the various rituals. Whether they would actually "practice" any of the rites is another matter - can you imagine how a priest would react?

5: Are there some Satanists who see magickal practice as too dangerous to be pursued, or is it the sort of thing every Church devotee is encouraged to look into? (I ask because magick freaks me out and I cannot see myself ever wanting to converse with demons, etc)

I'm sure it's different strokes for different folks. No philosophy or religion is practiced the same by all adherents - my guess is Satanism is no different.

You know I've only known a couple of Satanists and neither of them were bad or good - they were simply ordinary average people who found it worked for them the same way Scientology or Christianity works for others. I've found it interesting to read about but don't really care for anything organized whether that be religion or philosophy.

B.

You mentioned "held responsible" - this implies that followers of Levay do something that is objectionable - why?

Well, part of the reason I do believe in karma is that it seems impossible for us humans to avoid the consequences of our actions. Anyone who interacts with other humans is going to affect them and that (to me) means that we must take full responsibility for our actions --something the CoS says they advise their followers to do. And yet, they seem to have a real kick for words like 'vengeance' and 'destruction' when they feel they have been wronged. To me, that is a very banal position to take.

I tend to value forgiveness and kindness regardless of who the other person is. Also, what if you are taking vengeance without fully knowing the facts? Or what if the person who has wronged you might be affected in their heart by a show of mercy on your part? I have seen mercy and forgiveness change humans in an instant and it doesn't take magick or invocations. Just plain kindness will do.

To clarify my position (since I don't like to bait people) I'm not impressed by any religion or belief system that tells me there is no life after death and that the soul is not immortal. I am interested to see if there is anyone on ATS who can explain this Libertarian type of Lucifer-worship to me because I can't see it being superior to the basic interpretation of karma and rebirth.

I guess it seems like if a person believes in the CoS, they must lose the idea of an immortal soul. Am I wrong there? Do CoS folks believe in rebirth?

Originally posted by smallpeeps

You mentioned "held responsible" - this implies that followers of Levay do something that is objectionable - why?

Well, part of the reason I do believe in karma is that it seems impossible for us humans to avoid the consequences of our actions. Anyone who interacts with other humans is going to affect them and that (to me) means that we must take full responsibility for our actions --something the CoS says they advise their followers to do. And yet, they seem to have a real kick for words like 'vengeance' and 'destruction' when they feel they have been wronged. To me, that is a very banal position to take.

They are just words.. strong words, but just words. Words like this tend to resonate strongly in our minds and they use that strength.

To clarify my position (since I don't like to bait people) I'm not impressed by any religion or belief system that tells me there is no life after death and that the soul is not immortal. I am interested to see if there is anyone on ATS who can explain this Libertarian type of Lucifer-worship to me because I can't see it being superior to the basic interpretation of karma and rebirth.

Frankly it doesn't matter one bit if you don't see it as superior, or are impressed by it. Well I'll take that back it maybe it does matter... to the Satanists. The fact that you (or more correctly people in general) may not like it makes this type of thing even stronger for them.

I guess it seems like if a person believes in the CoS, they must lose the idea of an immortal soul. Am I wrong there?

Well they may not have any ideas of the immortal soul to begin with.

Do CoS folks believe in rebirth?

The CoS do not believe in any type of afterlive.. hence their live for the moment ideals.


[edit on 15-2-2005 by Cug]

Isn't the church of satan going bankrupt with many members quitting?since levay's death the legal battle between his wife and daughter has torn the church apart.

Frankly it doesn't matter one bit if you don't see it as superior, or are impressed by it.

Who said my opinions should matter? I'm just asking.

Look, the CoS may not represent Satanism at all, but they are the ones who claim to be representing the Dark Lord, so they're the ones I'm inquiring about. They say (on their website) that they never hurt anyone unless they themselves are hurt first, which is fine although I view this with the same grain of salt I use when listening to the Catholics deny any child-raping by their priests. All organized religion, be it Satan-loving or Jesus-loving is equally bad, IMO.

My question is this: Since the Christian religions talk about heaven and an afterlife, and the early gnostic beliefs of Christianity suggest many Christians believed in re-birth and karma (Origen), what exactly do the Satanists have to offer me as a potential adherent to their faith?

If someone is telling me that this life is all there is, and that when I die, that's the end of me, I am not going to be impressed. Again, it seems like a crude, lowest-common-denominator belief system. In any case why would they include Satan in it? Why not just adhere to wiccan belief systems? I am curious as to the incentive for belief in Satan as god. The incentive to believe in Christ is obvious: Heaven and if one subscribes to karma and re-birth, the principle of love seems far superior, unless one is trying to degrade their immortal soul.

Can a Satanist believe in re-birth? How does the Law of Karma work when one is polarized toward self and self-service? If "Ol' Scratch" is their god, I'm wondering what he is offering them. Simple question.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I guess it seems like if a person believes in the CoS, they must lose the idea of an immortal soul. Am I wrong there? Do CoS folks believe in rebirth?

Satanists simply aren't worried about what happens after this life - it's more of an eat, drink, be merry for tomorrow you may be dead and then all bets are off. Organized atheists if you will - which to me is ironic in itself.

If there is an afterlife or reincarnation or nothing - so be it, that's life.

One thing I really want to convey to you here is Satanists do not worship satan. They don't recognize any deity as being real. The use of Satan is a symbolic "bite me" to christianity/organized religion in general. They see the typical judeo/christian religions as all about sacrifice, self doubt and most of all control - while they embrace a sort of secular humanist look at life. Because they see themselves as the antithesis of religious hypocracy they adopted satan as their symbol. But like I said they no more believe in satan than they do god.

I'll send one of my friends that I mentioned earlier an email if you'd like - let me know.

B.


[edit on 2/15/05 by Bleys]

Satanism is embracing life, never looking back, and seeing the Neter Amon in everything;embracing the darker, hidden side of life as to understand it and learn from it, rather than shun it, like 99% of the global herd.

Standing up, being responsible, and loving life, and all of it's delights is only the beginning. The funny thing is, every LaVeyan i've met has been an amazingly intelligent, caring person. What people don't understand, they fear.

Satanists do not worship satan. They don't recognize any deity as being real.

Yes, that's what they say, and yet they do practice magick. Doesn't the existence of magick indicate deities of non-human substance? I would say that any conjuring of demons would imply that "Satan" is real even if he is just a very powerful spirit-being.

Also, how do Church of Satan members view Michael Aquino's 'Temple of Set'? The information there seems to contradict what you're saying. Here's some text from their website:

The Satanic religion proposes to raise the individual to personal godhood, free from enslavement to any other “God” [or gods]. Unfortunately this is a question not just of power, but also of ethics, morality, and psychological maturity. The Church of Satan’s initial prescriptions - as outlined in LaVey’s 1969 book The Satanic Bible - were used by some as a basis for metaphysical growth, but by others as merely an excuse for egoistic irresponsibility. The Church suffered periodically from petty crises and scandals among the general membership, and finally Anton LaVey lost confidence in its organizational viability. In 1975 he made a decision to redesign it as a nonfunctional vehicle for his personal expression, exploitation, and financial income. Until his 1997 death he continued to cynically advertise it as a “religion”, and to sell “memberships” and “priesthoods” under this guise.

LaVey’s 1975 corruption of the Church of Satan was emphatically rejected by the majority of the Priesthood, who immediately resigned from the Church in protest and denied its legitimacy as an authentic Satanic religion henceforth. [...]

The Temple of Set and Satanism

Q1: What is “Satanism”?

A1: Satanism is the belief in the existence of Satan as a sentient being or spirit in the universe, and the worship of Satan and obedience to his perceived principles, standards, and goals. As Satan is defined as a metaphysical being - Devil or Archangel, such belief in him constitutes a religion rather than a rational philosophy or ideology.

These guys seem to be much more hard-core. I will check their website to see if I can find the answers I seek. I am very curious to know if Satan-worship is conducive to a belief in re-birth and Karma.

Thanks for the comments, Bleys. I'd be interested to hear what your friend thinks of the Temple of Set's claim above that Lavey's church is basically just a money-making scheme.

I'll send the email and u2u it to you when I get a reply.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Yes, that's what they say, and yet they do practice magick. Doesn't the existence of magick indicate deities of non-human substance? I would say that any conjuring of demons would imply that "Satan" is real even if he is just a very powerful spirit-being.

It is my impression that mass/ritual is nothing more than a parody of the catholic mass - more "in your face" to organized religion. I've never actually seen one but I get the impression it's theater and not taken seriously.

Also, how do Church of Satan members view Michael Aquino's 'Temple of Set'? The information there seems to contradict what you're saying. *snip*

I'd be interested to hear what your friend thinks of the Temple of Set's claim above that Lavey's church is basically just a money-making scheme.

I found this interesting little tidbit from Levay himself:

There need be no deviation from these principles. They should summarily negate internecine strife and bickering. Any attempts at Satanic "reformation" should be seen for what they are: creating problems where none exist. There should be no place in any religion for reformers whose very religion is the fetish of reformation. There is even a place and title for compulsive dissidents, and if they can wear the mantle, they are welcome. They would delude themselves to be revolutionaries. In our camp, they are called "House Masochists." Satanism 101

Have to admit that makes me laugh - a satanic reformation because people figured they knew better than Levay with regard to his own creation.

There has to be huge animosity between the groups just like in various christian religions with one group figuring the other has it wrong. But like Levay said - reform all you want you're still a poseur.

My opinion on the money-making scheme - what religion isn't?

B.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Frankly it doesn't matter one bit if you don't see it as superior, or are impressed by it.

Who said my opinions should matter? I'm just asking.

Chill. What I'm saying is that members of the CoS just don't care about your opinion of them.

My question is this: Since the Christian religions talk about heaven and an afterlife, and the early gnostic beliefs of Christianity suggest many Christians believed in re-birth and karma (Origen), what exactly do the Satanists have to offer me as a potential adherent to their faith?

Pleasure and happiness in THIS life.

If someone is telling me that this life is all there is, and that when I die, that's the end of me, I am not going to be impressed.

No one is trying to impress you.

Again, it seems like a crude, lowest-common-denominator belief system. In any case why would they include Satan in it? Why not just adhere to wiccan belief systems?

Because Wicca is not Satanism. They include Satan because it scares people, In fact the CoS don't even believe in an entity called Satan (Those that did eventual broke off and formed the Temple of Set) so why would they believe in Wicca's God and Goddess?

Can a Satanist believe in re-birth? How does the Law of Karma work when one is polarized toward self and self-service? If "Ol' Scratch" is their god, I'm wondering what he is offering them. Simple question.

Very simple question indeed, so simple it's been answered several times. The CoS does not believe in an afterlife of any kind.

There is a huge difference between a "satanist" and a "devil-worshiper".

Very simple question indeed, so simple it's been answered several times. The CoS does not believe in an afterlife of any kind.

No, the question has not been answered for Satan worship in general. Yes, I now have my answer about the CoS. As I posted, it sounds like the CoS doesn't represent Satanism anyway. It sounds like that "Church" is actually a joke played by Levay on anyone willing to follow him after the 1975 schism. Well, at least according to the people who DO profess to worship Satan, i.e. Temple of Set.

As I'm looking through the Temple of Set site, I found one reference to 'past selves' but no mention of an afterlife. I am very curious to find an answer to this question. I can't see how anyone could be a Satanist if there is no promise of some eternal reward after death. Why would people make a religion to worship Satan (in opposition to Christ) if there's nothing to gain? If it's all about self then why not just SAY that?

Are you an expert on the subject, Cug? Are you speaking for all Satanists with your answer or just for the CoS? Do you believe in Satan as the supreme Lord of Darkness? Feel free to preach to me as I am very curious about what Satanists believe. I am and always will be sufficiently 'chill'.

surfnaked: There is a huge difference between a "satanist" and a "devil-worshiper".

Okay, but to newbies like me, I can't see the difference. What has Satan got to offer? That's what I am ultimately looking to find out. He can't offer me myself because I've already got that. He can't offer me an afterlife because apparently Satanists don't believe in one. So why would anyone want to worship him?

I didn't invent the Law of Karma. It's been around for eons and is sublime in its simplicity and value. I'm wondering what (if any) depth and sophistication there is to this 'religion' of Satan-worship. That's all.

the church of satan eats lebanese rodents and dances with snakes in the shower.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Very simple question indeed, so simple it's been answered several times. The CoS does not believe in an afterlife of any kind.

No, the question has not been answered for Satan worship in general. Yes, I now have my answer about the CoS. As I posted, it sounds like the CoS doesn't represent Satanism anyway. It sounds like that "Church" is actually a joke played by Levay on anyone willing to follow him after the 1975 schism. Well, at least according to the people who DO profess to worship Satan, i.e. Temple of Set.

The question can not be asked about satanist in general.. there is no such thing. There are probably as many branches of satanism as there are Christianity. I know I'm forgeting some.

Church of Satan
Temple of Set
The First Church of Satan
Theistic Satanism
Diabolatry
Luciferianism
Baphometic Satanism
Traditional satanism
Transtopianism
Typhonian Witchcraft
Order of Nine Angels
Then there are people who call themselves Satanist but don't follow any particular tradition.
And I can't forget the dumb***es who just call themselves Satan worshipers but don't practice anything but use it as an excuse for crime of assorted types.

Oh a quick FYI many many times when an occult group splits, there is a lot of bitching about the former group. But I guess there was a lot of back biting when Martin Luther split so it's a normal human thing. ;-)

As I'm looking through the Temple of Set site, I found one reference to 'past selves' but no mention of an afterlife. I am very curious to find an answer to this question. I can't see how anyone could be a Satanist if there is no promise of some eternal reward after death. Why would people make a religion to worship Satan (in opposition to Christ) if there's nothing to gain? If it's all about self then why not just SAY that?

Maybe because they see something to gain that's not related to an afterlife?

Are you an expert on the subject, Cug? Are you speaking for all Satanists with your answer or just for the CoS? Do you believe in Satan as the supreme Lord of Darkness? Feel free to preach to me as I am very curious about what Satanists believe. I am and always will be sufficiently 'chill'.

I'm not expert in anything, life is a constant process of learning and if your an "expert" then there is nothing more to learn.

I can't speak for Satanists as I'm a Thelemite (But many will call me a Satanist and nothing I say will change their mind). But I do know quite a bit about them as the modern versions can be seen as being influenced by Thelema somewhat. Oh and No I don't believe in Satan as the supreme Lord of Darkness.

surfnaked: There is a huge difference between a "satanist" and a "devil-worshiper".

Okay, but to newbies like me, I can't see the difference. What has Satan got to offer? That's what I am ultimately looking to find out. He can't offer me myself because I've already got that. He can't offer me an afterlife because apparently Satanists don't believe in one. So why would anyone want to worship him?

Lets turn this around a bit... What does God offer if you don't believe in an afterlife or Karma?

Nothing

Satanism offers it's believers a better life (Now not in some future life), self-improvement, enjoyment, and the fun that comes from freaking out the "straights".

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Cug]

Cug, I respect your response. I agree with you.

I have noticed in my cursory investigation of 'Satanism' and magick-use that these people are not inclined to throw their 'pearls before swine' so to speak. They do not offer their advice or opinions or knowledge lightly. I believe this comes from their realizing how any knowledge (read: power) in the hands of an idiot can only harm him and possibly others as well. I agree with this sentiment and I would say I practice this same reserved position in my own life.

What does God offer if you don't believe in an afterlife or Karma?

In fact, I would be called a Satan-worshipper by most of the people I used to know when I was in the Jehovah-Witness-Watchtower cult. In fact, these people all believe that it is Satan who guides me now. From the biblical perspective, I have no problem with this; Satan was the one who opened Adam and Eve's eyes and made them self-aware. To answer your question: If one does NOT believe in rebirth and Karma, 'Satan' probably has more to offer them than Jehovah, at least from what the bible says. If this life is all there is, I see little reason to spend it in piety or fasting.

I tend to be suspicious of any bad-guy who is so bad that he cannot be redeemed, and Satan qualifies in this regard. In fact, one of the Anathemas pronounced against Origen was for anyone who continued to believe that Christ would also be crucified for (able to provide salvation for) the demons as well. I actually like that idea because it is my belief that mercy and compassion can redeem anyone, including Satan himself. However, it is the very 'totality' of Satan's evil that makes me doubt the whole concept of him. It's almost as if someone would HAVE to be Satan if there were not a real one. On this, I think we agree as well. The myth is useful, regardless of if he exists or not. His image has been used by the churches to perpetuate more evil than anything Satan himself ever ostensibly did.

I can't speak for Satanists as I'm a Thelemite

I read as much as I could find on Wikipedia about Thelema and I do intend to read "The Book of Law" as it sounds quite interesting. I did find this bit curious though:

"The Fraternitas Saturni and related groups are special in that they accept Thelema, but extend it by the phrase "Mitleidlose Liebe!" ("Merciless love!")"

This phrase goes to one of my original questions about Mercy. Can you explain to me why this branch of Thelemites would use it? What do they mean by "merciless love"? How do Thelemites view mercy in general?

I would say quite certainly that mercy can affect positive change in people who recieve it, although not always. I like the example of Jean Valjean, who is a thief, but who is forgiven and is therefore changed.

CUG - would you say that Thelema leans more towards the "Luciferian" side of things - as "Free Will" is Vital to Both (i.e. the Core Source of "Magick")? I swear if I run into another person on-line that believes Lucifer/Luciferians = Satan/Satanists - I will lose my S**t! Most people are unaware that there are
Both A-Deistic & Deistic Satanists in Existence!

Quote: "The use of Satan is a symbolic "bite me" to Christianity & organized religion in general. They see the typical Judeo-Christian religions as all about sacrifice, self doubt and most of all control."

Indeed - this is what Lavey was up to - he was trying to make a point - Sarcastically!

Additionally - wasn't Crowley quoted as saying "Thelema must NEVER Contradict Scientific Law". Well now - Karma is indeed a Scientific Concept (the Law of Cause & Effect)! I believe that Karma & Thelema are not only Compatible but Complement each other well! CUG - What is your take on this?



[edit on 16-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I read as much as I could find on Wikipedia about Thelema and I do intend to read "The Book of Law" as it sounds quite interesting.

A better source would be thelemapedia.org it's a wiki for Thelema. It still needs work but it's still a good resource. (Disclamer: I have contributed several articles on that site, but it's not mine.)

I did find this bit curious though:

"The Fraternitas Saturni and related groups are special in that they accept Thelema, but extend it by the phrase "Mitleidlose Liebe!" ("Merciless love!")"

This phrase goes to one of my original questions about Mercy. Can you explain to me why this branch of Thelemites would use it? What do they mean by "merciless love"? How do Thelemites view mercy in general?

Frankly I don't know that much about them. They are pretty localized in Germany and don't put out much information in English. What I do know (or think I know) is they are a pretty distant offshoot of Thelema and really don't share much in common now.

Thelemites & mercy in general that's a complicated issue, There are several verses in the Book of the Law that can be seen as relating to mercy.. But the comment at the end reads in part

"Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence. All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself."

so I really can't discuss it. But I waver the meaning of the comment at times.. after all if I was to get on a soapbox in the town square and start talking about my view on it... the average Joe would shun me

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
CUG - would you say that Thelema leans more towards the "Luciferian" side of things - as "Free Will" is Vital to Both (i.e. the Core Source of "Magick")? I swear if I run into another person on-line that believes Lucifer/Luciferians = Satan/Satanists - I will lose my S**t! Most people are unaware that there are
Both A-Deistic & Deistic Satanists in Existence!

Well I'd probably say that Luciferian is leaning towards the Thelemic side of things.

Now if your talking about right hand path vrs left hand path I'd guess it all depends or your definition of each. If the left hand paths value the spiritual advancement of the self over other goals then I say they are related. but at other times I think Thelema follows the left had path to achieve right hand goals... or vice versa.

Additionally - wasn't Crowley quoted as saying "Thelema must NEVER Contradict Scientific Law". Well now - Karma is indeed a Scientific Concept (the Law of Cause & Effect)! I believe that Karma & Thelema are not only Compatible but Complement each other well! CUG - What is your take on this?

Well that quote does not ring a bell. Cause & Effect... that's how Magick works in a nutshell. As far as Karma goes you could say bad karma is the result of not following your true Will.

But that doesn't fit with the traditional view of Karma not effecting you until your next life. And I'm not 100% on the thelemic view on the afterlife. It can follow the traditional western Qabalah and have a belief in reincarnation, but in the Book of the Law it states.

1:58. I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice.

So I have to say... I'm not sure.

Well I guess that you have never heard of "Instant Karma" - it is not necessarily restricted to the "Next Life"! In Physics "Cause & Effect" can also be Instant!

Things just keep getting more & more Interesting! I also remember reading somewhere that in Crowley's Mind "Hermetic=Gnostic=Thelemic" & Vice Versa! As you know "Thelema" is the Greek word for Will! The
"Gnostic Scriptures" are written in a Greek derivative know as "Coptic"! I find it Fascinating how the Contents of one tiny little book written in ENGLISH (AL) seems to capture the Jist of Gnosticism & Hermeticism! There is now more Mounting evidence that the Gospels were written by Greek Speaking Jews in Egypt! Christianity must have been MAJORLY Big Time Corrupted to become what it has today!

On a related note - I equate the Above to "Luciferianism" because the following: the Mythical Lucifer figure is considered a Hero to Luciferians because when "GOD" gave him a commandment (just so happened to be "Bow before my new Creation = Humanity") Lucifer told the G-man to F**K OFF! = Free Will of the Individual independent from the "Will of GOD"!

In the Gnostic Interpretation of Genesis the SERPENT is considered a Hero - because while "God" only wanted to Control it's new Creation & keep it in the Darkness of Ignorance - the Serpent offered Humanity the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge - Freedom in other words! The Serpent said "Don't worry you will not Die - Rather if you eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil - Yea shall become as GODS"! See the Pattern?! This is the
so-called “Gnostic Heresy”!