No Great Inventions From Muslim Countries For 100 Years ( Title edited as it was a bit misleading )

Behind the mask of the "avatar" is a most prolific and insightful mind, unfortunately his/her genius escapes many, and in recognition I must say thank you for the way above stimulus.

Originally posted by gekko
Or perhaps its because of Europe and Americas repression of the region since colonial time. If you look at muslims in western countries, I'm sure you'll find quite a few scientists and inventors that has been taken by the "brain-drain".

If your country is ravaged by war and famine, you might not find much time for research.

How about the turbulent areas of Africa or South America, many inventions there?

Not a bad question, but I have a feeling the cause would be political rather than religious. I haven't done any research so I could be dead wrong...

Kind of hard when western nations are either arming your enemy for conflict or propping the next dictator. Your right, look at Africa and S. America, after centuries of colonialism and genocide, they wonder when was the last great invention.


It is political and money. If you are not wondering about your next meal, you can lie around wondering about the next great advancement in hula hoop technology.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by IComeWithASword]

Originally posted by Janus
Now i was a little taken aback by this so i did a search for Muslim great Muslim Inventions over the last 100 years, and was surprised to find that there have been no major advances in Science, Medicine or any other Inventions that have had a major impact on the modern World for over 100 years.

Hasan Camil al Sabbah , have important contributions in the electrics and electronics and dozens of inventions .

Originally posted by www.iric.org...

In this issue, we would like to introduce the great elec­trical and electronics research engineer, mathematician and inventor Camil A. Sabbah (1895-1935).

He was born at Nabatieh, Leba­non, on August 16, 1895 and studied at the American University of Beirut, Beirut, Lebanon. During the first World War (1916-1918) he commanded a Turkish military wireless station in Gallipoli, Tur­key, and after the war taught mathematics at the imperial college ofDamascus, Syria, and the American University of Beirut. In 1921, he came to the United States, and for a short time studied at Massachusetts In­stitute of Technology; then he joined the University of Illinois and studied electri­cal engineering and engineering physics courses. He got his B.Sc. degree in elec­trical engineering from the University of Illinois in 1923. He joined the vacuum tube section of the engineering laboratory of the General Electric Company at Schenectady,N.Y., in 1923,wherehe was engaged in math­ematical and experi­mental research, prin­cipally on rectifiers and inverters, receiv­ing over 70 of United States and foreign patents covering his work. He was en­gaged in work ontele­vision and motors as well, and originated circuits for use with rectifiers. He wrote a series of articles on polyphase policyclic static converters which were published in the General Electric Review, and his paper on the effect of circuits on arc backs in mercury arc rectifiers was read before the International Electric Congress at Paris in 1932. Hejoined the Institute ofElectri­cal and Electronics Engineers in 1929 as a member,thenin 1933 hewaspromotedto the fellowship grade.

Camil A. Sabbah died on March

31, 1935 in an automobile accident at Lewis, near Elizabethtowfl, N Y C G

Marcy, the personnel director of G E Co described C. A. Sabbah in a letter dated Aril 16, 1935 in the following words:

“...He was increasingly recog­nized as a clever thinker on mathematical and engineering problems in America and his immediate superiors predicted a suc­cessful future for him. It is indeed unfor­tunate that his promising career should be brought to such an untimely end. His death is a great loss for the world of invention...”

Originally posted by Janus
So i sat back and wondered why this could be, is it the Religion? Or perhaps that Muslim Countries may be too inward looking? Or could it be that Islam views the Sciences as heretical in some way? So if there are any Muslims or anyone who can throw some light on this for me i would appreciate it. Also if hard-line Muslims got their way and we were all converted would this mean an end to scientific advancement?

Hard-line muslims term may need a definition , but if you meant groups like Taliban and Wahabis , you have right , if they got their way it would be the end of the sciences .

Look at these "fatwas" for example :

- Bin Bazz : Those who don't say that the Earth isn't spherical , are Kafirs (infidels) .

- Bin Bazz : I allowed killing of the one , who after his repentance , say that the sun is fixed and it isn't moving .
www.binbaz.org.sa...

- Bin Bazz : www.ansarweb.net...
"After it was spread that the sun is fixed and the earth is turning aroud it , I wrote an article that deny this saying , and show how much it is bad , and I mentioned some narrations and sensual evidences that this saying is erronnous and I clarified that who say that the sun is fixed is an infidel and a deviant "

- A rooster who layed an egg . And other birds who layed eggs without a male .
www.ansarweb.net...

- Learning the woman mathematics and geographic can cause her to get out from her religion . These sciences are dangerous on our nation and they aren't useful .
www.ansarweb.net...


If you read the history of wahabis you would discover by whom these cults were backed up and how they putted them as rulers on muslims world by force .
The british backed up the wahabis and used them to fight the ottomans . The wahabi's are a group who see that every muslim is a "kafir" infidel and they must fight them .
This is a big benifit for british as Harry St. John Philby said : "We have get Ibn Sa'ud's hate for the non-wahabi muslims deeper , every increase in this hate it would be better for our benifits " .
Such perverted doctrine have nothing to do with islam (Shia and Sunni) .


It was since western occupation for the islamic countries , from more than 100 years ago , and after assigning agents and/or perverted rulers on these countries , the muslims science level started to decrease .

The occupiers have to keep occupied countries dependant and in need for them so they fighted any knowledge advancements and did their best to keep them 3rd world countries .




Anyway , if we looked at Iran , in 26 years after the revolution , inspite the brutal war with the another wahabi Saddam , and inspite the penalties and economical siege for this country , Iran now owns its advanced technologies . It is not a contribution to sciences until now , but it still an
important improvement that have obvious indications .
Any attempt to stop Iran from having the technologies that they worked for
and that they deserve it , is an attempt to deprive the muslim world from advancement and prosperity .


In islam sciences and religion don't contradicts each others , but some false scientifial theories and some false islamic interpretations can cause a misconception about this rule .

Our prophet (pbuh) and his progeny (pbuh) have always encouraged muslims on seeking knowledge and on spreading it .

These are some narrations talking about the virtue of knowledge and the duty of scientists :

#1
“Pursuit of knowledge is an obligation on every muslem, man or woman.”

“Therefore seek knowledge from its source and learn it from those entitled to it.”

“Learning for the sake of God is good and rewarding and seeking knowledge is as worship of God, debate on scientific issues is as the glorification of God and acting to it is as Jihad.”

“Teaching knowledge to those who lack it, is a kind of charity and giving to those entitled to it, leads to nearness to God.”

“Since lawful and unlawful can be distinguished through knowledge, it enlightens the path to paradise, a help at the time of fear and a companion in loneliness, a company in private, a guide in happiness and sorrows, a weapon against enemy and an ornament on friends.”

“God makes some nations superior through knowledge and promotes them to the extent that He makes them leader so that others will follow them, set their deeds as examples for them, and seek their advice.”

“Angels wish to make friends with them, rub their wings on them and send greetings to them in their prayer.”

“All creatures on the earth and in the seas seek forgiveness for them, even fishes, beasts and quadrapeds.”

“Knowledge enlivens hearts from the death of ignorance, it is the light of eyes in darkness and strengthens bodies against weakness.”

“Knowledge makes man to be ranked among the best in the assembly of the righteous and promotes his rank in the world and the Hereafter.”

“Occupying one’s thought with knowledge is as keeping fast, and discussion of knowledge is as keeping vigil in prayer.”

“Ties among kinfolk and distinction of God’s lawful and unlawful through knowledge is servitude to God.”

“Knowledge is as a leader and practice is its subject.”

“God inspire knowledge to the fortunate and deprives the wretched from it.”

“Therefore happy is the person whom God has not deprived from the blessing of knowledge.”


#2
“The most severe punishment is for a learned man who does not benefit from his knowledge.”

#3
“Learn whatever you wish but God will give you reward for your deeds not for your knowledge, for the learned men endeavor to utilize what they have learnt but the unwise attempt to collect words and quote them.”

#4
“If a believer leaves behind a sheet of paper on which some knowledge is written, this very sheet of paper will serve as a wall between him and the Hell and against each letter written on it, God will give him a city in paradise seven times this world.”





.



[edit on 15-2-2005 by XLEGIONS]

So Camil A. Sabbah made his discoveries whilst resident in the United States? As the corrected tile suggests, there have been no major advancements from any Muslim Countries, i have no doubt individual Muslims living in the West have made discoveries ( im not trying to insinuate Muslims are Stupid but that the person who made the quote in my original post seems to be saying that there have been no major advancements from Muslim Countries )
Yes i did mean regimes like the Taliban as hard liners, im sorry i didn't make that clear.

It was since western occupation for the Islamic countries , from more than 100 years ago , and after assigning agents and/or perverted rulers on these countries , the Muslims science level started to decrease .

I don't doubt this to be true but there are quite a few wealthy Muslim Countries that have been relatively free of western interference in their Countries, im talking academic interference not Military, like Saudi Arabia for instance who have the ability and the money to pursue Scientific advancement but seem not to have done so.

The occupiers have to keep occupied countries dependant and in need for them so they fighted any knowledge advancements and did their best to keep them 3rd world countries .

I would hardly call Saudi Arabia or any of the rich Gulf states 3rd World so why when there is Money available do the Scientific Arts seem to be stagnant? Now i know that there are a lot of people in the Rich states living at subsistence level but i would call that a lack of Government will to make things better rather than lack of funds.

Anyway , if we looked at Iran , in 26 years after the revolution , in spite the brutal war with the another wahabi Saddam , and inspite the penalties and economical siege for this country , Iran now owns its advanced technologies . It is not a contribution to sciences until now , but it still an

Again im not doubting what you say, but rather than developing Scientific advances of their own arnt the Iranians just using currently available tech to further their own agenda? You say the Iranians are contributing to the sciences but it seems to me they are just using what is currently available such as Nuclear tech for instance. Yes i know that is what most countries do but i was talking about Inventions, as in new tech developed independently of the rest of the World.

In islam sciences and religion don't contradicts each others , but some false scientifial theories and some false islamic interpretations can cause a misconception about this rule .

If this is so why do people like the Taliban seek to oppress and suppress Science, where is their interpritation of Islam different to the rest of the Islamic Worlds?

heheh....XLEGION, I know what you mean, but the sun DOES actually move (though that may not be the movement that "Bin bazz" may be talking about)
Are those sites for real? I am not trying to discredit you or anything, but some of those fatwas are ridiculous. The earth is not round? What have roosters to do with religion? I also noticed that one of the links was in a /joke/ directory.
Other than that, I think it is a little strange to measure a religion's attitude towards science by looking at the inventions that came out of a country that claims to be of that religion. It is mostly a matter of how advanced the country itself is. For example, I could say that no new inventions have come out of Eastern Europe recently, so eastern europian culture is backward. Of course, that would be wrong.
Aside from that, why look at "Inventions" anyway? Most recent "major inventions" came from groups of people, not individuals. I am pretty certain that there was at least 1 muslim involved in the creation of dolly (the cloned sheep), I am sure there is at least 1 muslim involved in those companies that churn out mobiles, PCs, applainces etc., that are continuously revolutionising the market.
If you look at scientific/mathematical etc. achievements, there are a very large number of muslims involved. There are quite a few noble prize winners in such areas as well. Dr. Abdus-Salaam comes to mind.
Islam does not tell anyone not to learn. In fact, it says the exact opposite. To be a true muslim, you must always be attempting to gain knowledge and learn about your surroundings. Yes, Janus, Taliban and other such extremist groups DO have a warped perception of Islam, not the true Islam. It is not a good idea to base your understanding of Islam on what they do or say.

The Middle East itself is unstable. I'm not sure if the religion is to blame, or the number of religions, or the fierceness with which faith is questioned in other men. To have a perpetual inquisition makes a land nervous. The fatwas listed are much like Chrisitan reponses to the same idea, lets not forget. Organized religion is not condusive to science and learning. Every idea that is allowed to spread represents additional threats to the status quo.

People have been avoiding the Middle East for millenia, ever since the first people picked up and left, saying something to the effect of "To hell with you, you can have it!" Those men who are descendants of the great migration that formed Jericho kept walking, and found greener pastures that eventually soured in the same fashion. More people moved on, and the cycle repeated.

We in America were the once the pioneers, the rebels. Our revolution grew stale and now we are in decline. The natural evolution all societies go through will not leave us out of its reckoning.

Like most natural processes, the decay and resurrection of cities is cyclical. The Middle East has seen some of the greatest splendor known to man, and now they are in decline once again.

We as a species continue to plug onwards, some of us eyeing the stars and thinking "I don't care, they can have it. I want off this rock."

I think it is a little strange to measure a religion's attitude towards science by looking at the inventions that came out of a country that claims to be of that religion.

So did i, that was my main motivation for starting this thread. I wanted to know if what the Arch Bishop was quoted as saying was true or not.

It is mostly a matter of how advanced the country itself is. For example, I could say that no new inventions have come out of Eastern Europe recently, so eastern europian culture is backward.

You make a good point, but if we look back over say a Hundred years or so i think we will find Inventions from Eastern block Countries that were made independently. And i agree that at the moment the Eastern block countries are still getting themselves back on their feet after decades of Soviet rule.

Aside from that, why look at "Inventions" anyway? Most recent "major inventions" came from groups of people, not individuals.

Again you make a good point, the reason i chose to look at Inventions was because an eminent person in my country said there had been none from a Muslim country for over a Hundred years.

I am pretty certain that there was at least 1 muslim involved in the creation of dolly (the cloned sheep), I am sure there is at least 1 muslim involved in those companies that churn out mobiles, PCs, applainces etc., that are continuously revolutionising the market.

Im pretty sure that there have been significant advances from Muslim people, the point of my thread was that there seem to have been no advancements by individual people living in Muslim Countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states for instance.

There are quite a few noble prize winners in such areas as well. Dr. Abdus-Salaam comes to mind.

But did he make his discoveries in a Muslim country?
Dr. Abdus-Salaam I think if you look at this article he made his discoveries outside his home country and infact decided to leave as he received no support for his work from his parent nation.

t is not a good idea to base your understanding of Islam on what they do or say.

Thats why i started this topic, to further my understanding.

Ahaa...I think I get your point. In that case, yes, not many countries that claim to follow Islam have had someone who created some major invention recently. This is, however, because in most muslim countries the technology is not all that advanced, or they are poor, or they are under some backward despotic ruler. It is unlikely that an invention that goes anywhere beyond traditional electronics CAN be made in a muslim country, as there are no funds for this. None of this, however, has anything to do with ISLAM itself however, which, as I said, places great emphasis on the acquiring of knowledge.
Some of these countries ARE however, improving now. Although in Abdus-Salaams time his country was not very pro-education, the current government has developed this area.
One thing that bothered me about what the Archbishop said is that Muslims didn't just "Hand over" the greek/roman knowledge to the west. They made tremendous advances in them as well. The concept of a hospital for example (as a separate place to treat people suffering from similar problems) came from Muslim scholars.
If you want to REALLY further your understanding of Islam, the best bet is to go directly to the source- The Quran and the Trustworthy Hadith.

It is unlikely that an invention that goes anywhere beyond traditional electronics CAN be made in a muslim country, as there are no funds for this.

I agree that there are poor Islamic countries, without a doubt, but there are also some very, very rich ones too. Surely in a Country like Saudi Arabia or Kuwait were there is a lot of money from Oil money, i would argue that some of the Gulf states have more money than some western countries, there would be plenty of money for home grown research?

None of this, however, has anything to do with ISLAM itself however, which, as I said, places great emphasis on the acquiring of knowledge.

Im not sure if it has anything to do with Islam either but it does seem to be true that Islamic countries seem uninterested in research for research sake and seem content in using tech that is already available and not helping the advancement of research for the common good.
Now if this has anything to do with religion or not is another matter.

One thing that bothered me about what the Archbishop said is that Muslims didn't just "Hand over" the greek/roman knowledge to the west. They made tremendous advances in them as well. The concept of a hospital for example (as a separate place to treat people suffering from similar problems) came from Muslim scholars.

I agree 100% but that was a long time ago and there seems to have been nothing of importance in the field of medicine and health care from a Muslim run country for a long time now, im sure there are some fine minds in Muslim countries but why are they not using their talents in the area of medical research helping to find a cure for AIDS for instance?

f you want to REALLY further your understanding of Islam, the best bet is to go directly to the source- The Quran and the Trustworthy Hadith.

As i said im not sure its a religious thing but perhaps is influenced by the teachings of Islam. I don't claim to understand Islam but i find it strange that a person like the Arch Bishop would make a statement and target it towards Islamic states.

Originally posted by Netchicken

How about using planes as flying weapons, the Japanese did that during WW2, but the Muslims put a new spin on it....

What do u mean when u say "Muslims", do u want to say each and every muslim is behind it.......

This kind of generalization is not healthy. Greater Crimes have been commited by the Zealots of all most every religion including cristianity.

Baah! Double post!

[edit on 15-2-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by Janus
I agree that there are poor Islamic countries, without a doubt, but there are also some very, very rich ones too. Surely in a Country like Saudi Arabia or Kuwait were there is a lot of money from Oil money, i would argue that some of the Gulf states have more money than some western countries, there would be plenty of money for home grown research?

The Sauds? That is the part where the "backward despotic rulers" come in.

Originally posted by Janus
Im not sure if it has anything to do with Islam either but it does seem to be true that Islamic countries seem uninterested in research for research sake and seem content in using tech that is already available and not helping the advancement of research for the common good.

It is not that they are uninterested, it is just that they are incapable (for the reasons I mentioned above).

Originally posted by Janus
I agree 100% but that was a long time ago and there seems to have been nothing of importance in the field of medicine and health care from a Muslim run country for a long time now, im sure there are some fine minds in Muslim countries but why are they not using their talents in the area of medical research helping to find a cure for AIDS for instance?

I realised that it was not really relevant to the topic, it is just that I noticed the inaccuracy of the statement, and wanted to correct it.
If any of these "fine minds" wanted to help, they would have to be educated outside of their countries, or have foriegn teachers brought in. For you, that would not qualify as being "..from a Muslim Country". To do their research, they would have to go abroad, to places of more advanced technology. Again for you that would not qualify. As I said, currently these countries are not equiped for such work. The people have to start somewhere.

Originally posted by Janus
I find it strange that a person like the Arch Bishop would make a statement and target it towards Islamic states.

Is it really all that strange? The Archbishop is a Christian. It was his job to represent and explain Christianity as "The one true religion" (i.e. better than other religions). It should be expected that he make occasional digs at other religions.

[edit on 15-2-2005 by babloyi]

The Sauds? That is the part where the "backward despotic rulers" come in.

So would you say it is a decision based upon keeping the people back or a religious decision based on the teachings of Islam? Or are they more interested in buying Ferraris and breeding Horses?

It is not that they are uninterested, it is just that they are incapable (for the reasons I mentioned above).

But really the rich Gulf states are not incapable but unwilling to commit resources and money to scientific research, after all they are quite rich from oil so money really shouldn't be an obstacle.

Is it really all that strange? The Archbishop is a Christian. It was his job to represent and explain Christianity as "The one true religion" (i.e. better than other religions). It should be expected that he make occasional digs at other religions.

This is true but he had never seemed hostile to Islam before in any of his speeches. Perhaps his quote was taken out of context ... but i doubt that it was.
It does seem that what he said is fundamentaly true, that basically scientific advancement has come to a halt in Countries that are ruled by a Muslim Government or regime. I find that quite sad as a lot of advancements that have benefited us all came from the middle east as you say.

As said before i agree with that the majority of muslim countries are having theire own dark age.

I can say that not all muslims do not do scientific achievements my dad for example is supposebly on of the most important professors of his area in the world. trese.cs.utwente.nl... That is his work. Okay enough dad pimping

[edit on 15-2-2005 by tomcat ha]

Originally posted by tomcat ha
As said before i agree with that the majority of muslim countries are having theire own dark age.

I can say that not all muslims do not do scientific achievements my dad for example is supposebly on of the most important professors of his area in the world. trese.cs.utwente.nl... That is his work. Okay enough dad pimping

[edit on 15-2-2005 by tomcat ha]

So your Dad works in the Netherlands? Im assuming he and you are Muslims or you wouldn't have mentioned it. But would he be free to pursue his Science in the Middle east? I think i have established the money is there, after all if you can buy weapons you can fund research right? The Arch Bishops point was that no advances have happened in Muslim Countries i think we have established that there are fine minds at work in the west but would those minds have the same opportunities in say Saudi Arabia, Iran or Kuwait?
As for the Muslim world going through its own Dark Age, the money is there but perhaps the will is lacking?

Originally posted by Janus
So Camil A. Sabbah made his discoveries whilst resident in the United States? As the corrected tile suggests, there have been no major advancements from any Muslim Countries, i have no doubt individual Muslims living in the West have made discoveries ( im not trying to insinuate Muslims are Stupid but that the person who made the quote in my original post seems to be saying that there have been no major advancements from Muslim Countries )
Yes i did mean regimes like the Taliban as hard liners, im sorry i didn't make that clear.

It should that the governement benifit from a man with such capabilities .
The ottomans didn't care and the french occupators didn't hear about him .

Originally posted by Janus
I don't doubt this to be true but there are quite a few wealthy Muslim Countries that have been relatively free of western interference in their Countries, im talking academic interference not Military, like Saudi Arabia for instance who have the ability and the money to pursue Scientific advancement but seem not to have done so.

They have the ability and the money , but they don't have the will .

I would hardly call Saudi Arabia or any of the rich Gulf states 3rd World so why when there is Money available do the Scientific Arts seem to be stagnant? Now i know that there are a lot of people in the Rich states living at subsistence level but i would call that a lack of Government will to make things better rather than lack of funds.

Simply they don't have the will to raise the level of scientifical progress in their countries .
All moneys are spent on luxury and festivals .
There is some interests in the technological field and others , but they didn't reach inventing .

Again im not doubting what you say, but rather than developing Scientific advances of their own arnt the Iranians just using currently available tech to further their own agenda? You say the Iranians are contributing to the sciences but it seems to me they are just using what is currently available such as Nuclear tech for instance. Yes i know that is what most countries do but i was talking about Inventions, as in new tech developed independently of the rest of the World.

I said "It is not a contribution to sciences until now , but it still an important improvement that have obvious indications ."

Until now , I'm with you that Iran is only using the available techs .To begin inventing , they should first start from where others have ended .

In 15 years , they raised their scientifical rate . They aren't now scientifically dependent on other countries , they can have solutions in most of the scientifical field , many scientists have awards from international organisations and they have articles published in international magazines.
We can say that its a muslim country that it is starting to invent .
www.netiran.com...(693)

If this is so why do people like the Taliban seek to oppress and suppress Science, where is their interpritation of Islam different to the rest of the Islamic Worlds?

First , religious fatwas are away from scientific theories .

For muslims :
1) If a scientifical theorie agrees with the quran , muslims accept it .
2) If a theorie contradicts the quran , muslims reject it or find another interpretation of the quran .
3) If a muslim denys a miracle stated in the quran for any reason , but his denial will not touch the divinity of Allah or the prophet (pbuh) then he will still a muslim .
4) If a muslim denys a miracle in the quran and his denial returns that Allah or the prophet (pbuh) are liars then he will not be a muslim .

Anyway you will not see a fatwa for killing him like those wahabis do .


So researching in religion and researching in science are two things separated , religion must not control science and science must not control religion because there is no complete understandement of both .

But what muslims believe ,is that true science and true religion don't contradict eachothers .


[edit on 15-2-2005 by XLEGIONS]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by XLEGIONS]

The fatwas were answer to this question

if hard-line Muslims got their way and we were all converted would this mean an end to scientific advancement?

The point is : If we have some rulers , with a doctrine that don't listen to logic and consider some sciences as taboo , how we can expect that we may have inventions in our muslim countries under these rulers ?

Originally posted by babloyi
heheh....XLEGION, I know what you mean, but the sun DOES actually move (though that may not be the movement that "Bin bazz" may be talking about)

I agree 100 % that :
The sun moves
It is the movement that Bin Bazz was talking about .

"And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing."[Quran 36:38]

When a person say that the sun does not move , I don't say that he is an infidel and I must kill him . Instead I will work to prove scientifically that the sun DOES move .

The prophet (pbuh) and the 12 infallibles (pbuh) didn't kill those who have scientifical theories that didn't agree with the quran .

So the problem is in the fatwa of Bin Bazz and not in movement of the sun .

Are those sites for real? I am not trying to discredit you or anything, but some of those fatwas are ridiculous. The earth is not round?
I also noticed that one of the links was in a /joke/ directory.

These fatwas are ridiculous and for that they are listed in the joke directory .
Here are some fatwas from the same directory :
Learning english is haram (taboo) .
The earth isn't spherical and does not move .
Learning chemstry is haram , because its origin was alchemy and it is magic and prestidigitation , he also in his fatwa mentioned that Jabir bin Hayyan have nothing to do with science and with religion .
But Jabir bin Hayyan , the student of Imam Ja'far al Sadek (pbuh) , is known as Geber for westerns . He introduced experimental investigation into alchemy, which rapidly changed its character into modern chemistry .


Look how they fight science under the false pretext that they are defending religion .
No wonder that there is no scientific improvements under their governements because of their false doctrine and lack of will .

What a silly thread to start!

Is it not enough for now that they supposedly gave us:

Writing, the basics of law, and mathematics, possibly even medicine. Without all of those the advancements of today would have either been stunted or not as progressive as it is currently. I mean, is it not believed the Garden of Eden is there, and that in itself is the ultimate triumph? These very people you seek to denegrate held special dispensation in God's eyes, you held nothing.

So what exactly is the complaint? Do you look to them for everything? Is it not enough that other countries get to ride their coat-tails? What is it?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
What a silly thread to start!

Is it not enough for now that they supposedly gave us:

Writing, the basics of law, and mathematics, possibly even medicine. Without all of those the advancements of today would have either been stunted or not as progressive as it is currently. I mean, is it not believed the Garden of Eden is there, and that in itself is the ultimate triumph? These very people you seek to denegrate held special dispensation in God's eyes, you held nothing.

So what exactly is the complaint? Do you look to them for everything? Is it not enough that other countries get to ride their coat-tails? What is it?

To get what I said clearer , I wasn't talking about muslims , but I was talking about what the future of science will be under a regime like Taliban with wahabi doctrine that claim they are muslims .

The scientifical contributions were by true muslims . If the topic was about the history of science of muslims , I would have listed all available information to me . But let us to don't go off-topic .
Besides all the members in this topic agree on that muslims have gaved science to europe , so no need to mention that .

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
What a silly thread to start!

Is it not enough for now that they supposedly gave us:

Writing, the basics of law, and mathematics,

I think those were all thanks to the Sumerians and they were not Muslim, but had a religon which was a kind of Polytheism with many gods.

Just my 2cents since this thread is about Muslim Countries

[edit on 16-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]