Breaking News: SU-57 New Engine Success

originally posted by: wewuzkangz

That is with the older engines. The thing is I don't know why people prefer a US analyst to determine the 1st batch coming out in 2027 over a russian defense minister saying its coming out in 2019. The engines are interchangeable anyways.

"Coming out in 2019" must mean different things here and there. If you expect them to be in service and under serial production with the new engines in 2019, I'd suggest you prepare for disappointment. Some sort of OT&E will probably be taking place, I'm sure, but even extremely aggressive inflight testing of the new engine is going to take a year before they'd want to introduce it. My guess is that they'll have production problems when they switch from hand-built engines to serial production, as well as your common problems in turbofan development (they are legion- the F-135 is essentially a derivative of the F119 core, and it's still having occasional issues with cracking blades, etc and being tweaked and improved. This is new Russian engine is a clean sheet design). Mass production of engines is a difficult thing. Traditionally, Russian engine reliability and performance has lagged the West's ability. That doesn't mean it couldn't change, but it'd be a huge step, and not a gap I'd think likely accomolished in one short-hop to a brand new revolutionary new design.
The engines aren't going to be completelt interchangeable. The math on 30% increases in some performance parameters dictates increased air-flow. That generally means a larger diameter fan. That almost certainly means a larger, heavier engine bay that will need structural testing. Even if the airframe was first modified from the new engine sizings to seat the AL31's, you will still need flight testing for CG verification, etc before production. It's also a whole new flight regime test for the new engine, as some engines deal with odd and adverse airflow ingestion (such as in high AOA flight or with heavy yaw) much more forgivingly than others. You will also probably need larger/different intakes to take advantage of the capability. And intake airflow is voodoo. Especially when you start jamming obstructions like an RCS blocker in them.
That's just potential engine-related roadblocks to operational aircraft in the next 13 months. It ignores sensor and weapon integration, etc. They're going to have their work cut out for them. Also losing the foreign currency from India is going to necessitate more money allocated internally to keep the same testing and industrial pace.

a reply to: wewuzkangz

The panel involved covers the SPR and comm cord interface. It's opened and closed every flight. If you're not careful or in a hurry it doesn't always get latched solidly.

The only thing that gets you kicked out of this forum is blatant T&C violations resulting in banning. We're not always the most polite, especially with people that are convinced that one nation is the greatest on earth and their feet don't stink, but as long as it stays within the T&C and the people involved can take it, we don't care.

a reply to: RadioRobert

It's going to be kind of hard for them to be in service with it in 2019 considering Russian sources said they won't replace the AL-41s until 2020.

a reply to: RadioRobert

My only concern was for the SU-57s current engines and avionics. Not the new engines. I want to know all the information of the latest SU-57 specs. Here is an example. 2009 they said the SU-57 would be using GaAS MMICs. I heard this quote all over the forums from different users but dont see the sources where they got it from saying they would be using GaN MMICs and that the GaAS has been replaced by GaN MMICs,Such as claims of Guskov buying GaN MMICs from Mikran, BMPD livejournal saying the SH-121 is using GaN LTCC MMICs in 2013, even some in other forums say it has DAESA digital AESA radar......This is why I want it operational in 2019 to get the full details of what has happened......I am pretty sure the SU-57 project does not stop there. Wonder why they are pursuing ROFAR based radars for the SU-57 and Mig-41. So 2018 there will be tests. Lets see how that goes. But I want to see its current engine and current avionics which still are pretty great and l I hope to see revelations on the OLS-50 detection range and target detection. That is what I am hoping its the specs that come out when its operational.

originally posted by: wewuzkangz
a reply to: Zaphod58

I just hope I wont get kicked out of this forum like have with F-16.net for not playing in the same sandbox as everyone else. Let me know if I go to far in some cases

Dont worry about getting kicked out. They havent banned me yet and my sense of humor has done some pretty questionable posts in the past. Youre alright so far.

The aviation forum has some of the saltiest characters on ats but also the most informed and dedicated forum wise here. We like to think were the best forum here on ats and thats because we actually are.

We look at ourselfs as one big family complete with all the accompanying frustrations and camaraderie that comes from a real one.

So welcome for now. You obviously love russian aircraft.....thatll change once you start learning how much more kick ass american engineering is. We can help you with your "russian aircraft are the best" remedial therapy. A good place to start is the Strange California Sighting thread. Well get you back to healthy informed opinion in no time.

I keep waiting for a knock at the door......Im trying to behave,I really am :-P

Back on topic:

www.ruaviation.com...

From the Russians themselves: trials with the new engine will last several years.

The su-57 isn't going IOC in the near term...

originally posted by: BASSPLYR

originally posted by: wewuzkangz
a reply to: Zaphod58

I just hope I wont get kicked out of this forum like have with F-16.net for not playing in the same sandbox as everyone else. Let me know if I go to far in some cases

Dont worry about getting kicked out. They havent banned me yet and my sense of humor has done some pretty questionable posts in the past. Youre alright so far.

The aviation forum has some of the saltiest characters on ats but also the most informed and dedicated forum wise here. We like to think were the best forum here on ats and thats because we actually are.

We look at ourselfs as one big family complete with all the accompanying frustrations and camaraderie that comes from a real one.

So welcome for now. You obviously love russian aircraft.....thatll change once you start learning how much more kick ass american engineering is. We can help you with your "russian aircraft are the best" remedial therapy. A good place to start is the Strange California Sighting thread. Well get you back to healthy informed opinion in no time.

Should we tell him about the Black triangles we hold back for WW3? you know the ones that can fly in russian airspace undetected and turn off their missiles. the ones with optic/infra red camoflage and can hit mach 25.

The su-57 isn't going IOC in the near term...
Just curious have you read the rest of the news on your source?
"It was reported in August that Russia’s T-50 (PAK FA) fifth-generation fighter jet had received the serial index of Su-57. The experimental design work on the most advanced fighter jet should be completed in 2019 and its deliveries to the troops should begin at that time. As United Aircraft Corporation CEO Slyusar said, the pre-production batch will consist of 12 such planes."
There are other articles that show they are still pushing the SU-57s by 2019 with the old engines anyways.

However the SU-57 will still be operational in 2019 with the 1st batch of 12 aircraft......Think of this like the F-35 block upgrades. The aircraft is operational but wont have a DIRCM that blinds missile warheads like the 101ks-0 in the 2020s when it reaches block 5.

"The Su-57 is not expected to enter into serial production until upgraded engines are ready, which is unlikely to happen until 2027" -Gorenburg

russiafeed.com...

"The SU-57 programme has recently been the subject of much confusion stemming from a previous decision of the Russian Aerospace Forces to field the SU-57 with AL-41F1 engines until the new Isdeliye 30 engine became available from about 2022 .
The idea was that between now and 2022 the Russian Aerospace Forces would introduce the SU-57 into service with the AL-41F1 engine, and would then remove the AL-41F1 engines from the SU-57s when the new Isdeliye 30 engines became available so as to replace them with Isdeliye 30s."
"That plan has now been dropped, with the current plan being to deliver SU-57s to the regiments from 2020 with the new Isdeliye 30 engine already installed, procuring only a small batch of 12 SU-57s with AL-41F1 engines until then, and buying more SU-35 and SU-30 fighters in the meantime."

So since they dont want to be wasteful they are purchasing 4th gens and taking the 117 engines out of the SU-57s to be put on other sukhoi aircraft.
From the looks of these statements. 2019 its equipped with 117 engines than the izdelie 30 will be installed by 2020 for the 1st batch of 12 after the old engines are made of use for other sukhoi aircraft.

Who ever thought a Analyst from Harvard would be reduced to a fool. "That plan has now been dropped, with the current plan being to deliver SU-57s to the regiments from 2020 with the new Isdeliye 30 engine already installed" More like 2020 the izdelie 30 engines would be on the 1st batch of 12. Not in 2027 that it is deemed ready.

"They [the trials] have just begun. They will, of course, last several years," he said." I am assuming if the 1st batch of 12 are replaced with izdelie 30 engines by 2020 the aircraft would be operation with these engines. But those 12 SU-57s wont see combat until give the green light to do so if those izdelie 30 engines are promised what they are intended to do. Reminds me of the F-22.

a reply to: yuppa

He wont believe you anyways. Thats something that needs to be seen to believe.

How much of this optimism is simply being dangled to keep the Indian AF from walking away from the program?

a reply to: FredT

I probably would give it a week or month to see what the Indians will report of this 1st flight new engine success......Now you have me thinking if the Indians have a state armament plan of where there money is going to be spent.
.

originally posted by: FredT
How much of this optimism is simply being dangled to keep the Indian AF from walking away from the program?

Extremely relevant question.

Based on India's recent comments on suspension, I'd say the problems they've had with Saturn and their AL-31's is probably diminishing confidence in the new engine and development schedule.

Timeline keeps slipping, development costs keep rising by the billions according to the last Russian requests for a cash infusion, quality control/support issues with Saturn/Sukhoi... All of that is weighing on India before they hand over another check.

a reply to: wewuzkangz

First off, stop with the ad hominem attacks. Calling someone a fool, just because they state something you think is wrong is not acceptable. At least if you want me to continue to discuss things here. I roll my eyes at tons of stuff bill sweetman has written but I don't count him a fool. Likewise, my very strong disagreements with a few people here would not make me ever call them a fool.

People can be wrong without be a fool. Likewise, they can disagree without being insulting.

We are reading the same information here and taking away different spins. Part of that is because the pak-fa (now su-57) was supposed to go IOC in 2015. Then in 2017. Then in 2019. Now with the same source we are both reading above, the Russians are saying 2020. That sounds like a positive spin on another schedule slip to me.

Another alarm bell was when he said "if" the engine performance is as advertised. That means there is some question whether it will be. He is being honest. However, showing doubt like that is not a confidence booster.

As for reengining the earlier t-50s, I have serious doubts as to whether or not it would be a good idea. The early examples were anything but stealthy: exposed rivets, gratings, etc. The only possible positive spin on those examples is that the early su-57s were effectively large aerodynamical models or test beds rather than the final bird with the final stealthy materials used. That would be moderately in line with Russian historical development practices. The YF-22 was different from the F-22A. So we do it too, but build less of them. (Well, depending on how you classify those first concurrent F-35s...but that's its own rathole). However, if those first t-50s are examples of the final aircraft minus just the engines, then...I would seriously question the effectiveness of the su-57 in war against 5th gen aircraft.

The continued purchase of 4th gen aircraft is another alarm bell, BTW. Russia has limited resources. Hedging with 4th gen means they are splitting their resources. That would only make sense if they gave doubts about their new plane. Whether its the delivery schedule or capability they have doubts about, idk. Those doubts do appear to be there though.

Hence MY skepticism.

a reply to: anzha

The early examples were anything but stealthy: exposed rivets, gratings, etc. The only possible positive spin on those examples is that the early su-57s were effectively large aerodynamical models or test beds rather than the final bird with the final stealthy materials used. 

I wouldn't make too much of the fit and finish of developmental prototypes or preproduction models; look at the X-35..
Even as it sits the T-50 likely has a significantly smaller FCS than the Su-27 family (and most western designs). They might be planning on use of a RAM putty for panel lines, fasteners, etc. Primitive, and a pain in the ass, but it works. It's not going to be all-aspect, but I don't think that was ever the goal. They want a relatively difficult aircraft to detect on the cheap. By focusing on the frontal cross-section, they have retained multi-axis thrust-vectoring and limited aerodynamic compromises, and they kept cost down at the same time. If they can afford to see it through, it should be quite useful.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: yuppa

He wont believe you anyways. Thats something that needs to be seen to believe.

ya. like when they showed them to the russians ..iranians..and chinese. the looks of terror afterward were amazing.

a reply to: yuppa

Or flew them at low alt over los angeles and they were so sneaky next to nobody noticed....i noticed.

a reply to: anzha
"Calling someone a fool, just because they state something you think is wrong is not acceptable" .....I think???? How? This guy literally screwed up with his report. I have a very eerie feeling that you and everyone in this forum probably went crazy with insults when the 1st interview of Pierre Sprey came out on his opinion of the F-35. Gorenburg's report is my version of Pierre Sprey's F-35 report.

"We are reading the same information here and taking away different spins. Part of that is because the pak-fa (now su-57) was supposed to go IOC in 2015. Then in 2017. Then in 2019" Checked wiki and earliest report said later than 2016. That later sign is already an indicator it wont be out in that time frame. 2006 F-35 is operational in 2016. 2009 1st batch of 12 is to be out in 2019. so give or take a 10 year time frame.

ria.ru...

"The armed forces of Russia will adopt the fifth generation Su-57 fighter in 2018, the head of the Federation Council Committee on Defense and Security Viktor Bondarev told RIA Novosti.
"The fifth-generation fighter PAK FA T-50, which was named Su-57 in serial production, is planned to be adopted in 2018. It successfully passed the tests, and soon the pilots will start to develop and operate it," Bondarev told the agency.
The first installment will be only 12 aircraft, the senator specified, and, in his opinion, next year "we will get only two or three fighters." Pre-production production is planned from 2019.
Note. from the Administration: to receive in the next year "two-three" fighter can only be through the transfer of T50-11 and T50-10."

www.defense-aerospace.com...

MOSCOW --- Russia’s Defense Ministry expects to sign a contract for a pilot batch of fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jets next year and troops should receive these cutting-edge aircraft in 2019, Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Wednesday.
The deputy defense minister made this statement at a press conference devoted to the results of the Army-2017 international military and technical forum.
The forum’s visitors displayed great interest in the latest Russian aircraft, including Su-34 and Su-35 planes, and also the cutting-edge fifth-generation fighter jet which has been named as the Su-57," the deputy defense minister said.
"We are now considering signing a contract for the delivery of a pilot batch of these fighter jets in 2018 with their dispatch to the troops in 2019," he said.
The Su-57 (PAK FA) took to the skies for the first time in 2010. As was reported earlier, the experimental design work on the cutting-edge fighter jet should be completed in 2019 and its deliveries to the troops should begin at that time. As United Aircraft Corporation CEO Yuri Slyusar said, the pre-production batch will consist of 12 such planes.
Russian Aerospace Force Commander-in-Chief Viktor Bondarev said earlier that the deliveries of fifth-generation fighter jets to aviation units would begin from 2018.
The Army-2017 international military and technical forum was held in Kubinka outside Moscow on August 22-27.

OK you got military officials, CEO in a aerial industry, hell even a politician all saying the same exact thing. I dont know if you have taken the hint by now but by all means if you still want to follow Gorenburg's opinion along with everyone else I am not stopping you.

" The early examples were anything but stealthy: exposed rivets, gratings, etc. The only possible positive spin on those examples is that the early su-57s were effectively large aerodynamical models or test beds rather than the final bird with the final stealthy materials used.- I fall asleep on things like this but there have been arguements going back and forth on its design. Such as exposed fan blades and someone else arguing that the fan blades are made out of composites and had radar blocker, Talks about S-ducts......Again I pay a little attention to details with things like this as much as I can without trying to fall asleep.

"I would seriously question the effectiveness of the su-57 in war against 5th gen aircraft. " Come on even the old engines are still amazing an F-22 without external fuel tanks or refuel give it a max 2,049km range while the current 117 engines give a 3,500km range. As we can see they are pushing for a above 5,000km range engine that by most is considered an ADVENT design.

"Hedging with 4th gen means they are splitting their resources. That would only make sense if they gave doubts about their new plane." Again they are making a full replacement for the batch of 12 SU-57s.....Think about it few years they want it to replace with izdelie-30 so tell me what are they going to do with the rest of the 117 engines before already jumping to doubts???????????

a reply to: wewuzkangz

LMAO keep drinking that russian kool-aid.

A 5,000km range engine... What does that even mean? With how much fuel, payload, at what speed and height?

I'm using Wikipedia specifications here. I looked at the citations and they are mostly several years old at this point, so who knows how real they are. In any event, the problem with range specifications is sometimes internal only fuel range is listed, sometimes range with external fuel tanks is listed. Sometimes the range is simply calculated by multiplying the combat radius by two. In the case of the F-35 I've seen the combat radius threshold (minimum acceptable combat radius as per the USG) multiplied by two (combat radius might entail a specific profile) to give its "maximum range".

Anyway, Su-57 is a 39,680 lb aircraft (when empty) with a fuel capacity of 22,700 lb. If you exclude the pilot and any payload, that means fully fueled the Su-57 will be 36.3% fuel. An F-35A is a 28,999 lb aircraft (empty) has a fuel capacity of 18,498 lb, again that means it will be 38.9% fuel. And an F-22A is a 43,340 lb aircraft (empty) with a fuel capacity of 18,000 lb, again this means it will be 29.3% fuel. Note: These are other sources which say the F-22A has 20,650 lb of fuel, but I'm just going with Wikipedia here...

If you look at the Breguet range equation, which will give a ball-park simple estimate of range, the three main factors are:
- Lift/Drag Ratio
- Propulsion System Efficiency
- Fuel Fraction

Does the Su-57 have a better lift/drag ratio than the F-22 or F-35? Probably not.

Is the propulsion system more efficient? Nope, but more advanced engines in all cases are coming. Unless otherwise stated, I'm talking about the existing engines.

Is the fuel fraction greater than the F-22 or F-35? Yes to the F-22, no to the F-35, but the Su-57 is also bigger than the F-35. In any event, my understanding is the fuel capacity of the YF-22 was cut from 25,000 lb to around 18-21 x1000 lb because other design considerations clashed with a high fuel capacity and the Pentagon decided the fuel wasn't worth it.

My expectation is the Su-57 probably has an internal fuel only range similar or slightly greater than the F-35, whilst both are probably going to be superior to the F-22. I would expect A2A combat radius to be 750-900 nmi, but that's my educated guess.

Aside: The reason why the F-35A is short and fat is because it's a medium sized aircraft with the fuel capacity of a heavy fighter, with big internal weapons bays for A2G munitions, plus space and weight for avionics. Carrying external anything doesn't work when you are trying to retain stealth.

In any event, there's marketing BS and brochures, and then there's physics.

Yes if someone is pointing to a engine that could increase the Su-57 range to 5,000 km (2670 nmi) then that does indicate massively better fuel consumption like ADVENT. But it could also be some of the aforementioned factors or distortions. If they did have such good fuel consumption, then I would expect them to be marketing it a lot.