While Trump is doing that the U.N are doing THIS:

a reply to: Revolution9

How would the tax bill hurt the 41 million poor? Per CNN...

Nearly doubles the standard deduction: Like the House bill, Senate Republicans would significantly raise today's standard deduction. In the Senate bill, the deduction for singles increases to $12,000 from $6,350 currently; and it raises it for married couples filing jointly to $24,000 from $12,700.

a reply to: Revolution9

I appreciate your post and bringing attention to a serious issue... and I especially appreciate your concern and compassion... but the devil is in the details and blaming "capitalism" in general does not address the hows and whys and wherefores of what actually creates the inequality. At its core, "capitalism" refers to how capital is controlled and distributed. Free market capitalism empowers everyone, but what we have is crony capitalism which empowers the few (corporations) at the expense of the many (the rest of us!).

For example, maybe it was just me, but while I heard much whining and moaning about the elimination of the state/property tax deduction for individuals and small businesses, I sure haven't heard much outrage about the fact that corporations get to keep the state/property tax deduction. There is absolutely nothing fair or equitable about giving fictional legal entities entitlements and privileges denied to the hardworking taxpaying citizen. These are the details that need to be yelled from the rooftops and spotlighted with floodlights. Too many folks don't understand that the system is rigged for the few, and how it's rigged, and thus it is too easy for those benefitting to simply cry about the "takers" and the "non-producers" and how lazy and jealous they are of the "producers." Nevermind that the real producers -- the employees who actually get the job done! -- are working more and harder for less money to maximize profit for their shareholders... who then pay lower taxes on money they didn't have to lift a finger for than the folks who actually labored to produce the goods or provide the service. These are the details -- the hows and whys and wherefores -- that people must know about to understand how unfair the system is.

We need fair and effective tax reform AND incorporation reform. We have to spotlight the inequities in the law, educate the public, and make our congress critters and corporate CEOs publicly explain and defend their cronyism. When folks understand the root problems, they will be better prepared to recognize and demand the proper remedies.

Right, just for reference the main difference between traditional international development versus "sustainable development" is that the former saw a false dichotomy between developed nations as having "arrived" versus third world, developing nations that needed aid. Now, development orgs including the UN have embraced sustainable development, wherein nobody has arrived, including developed countries, but instead are on a scale of development. In this model, which the evidence supports, countries such as the US still have issues such as poverty, education gaps, health care issues, etc.

Also, economics and poverty are one area I can never get with the conservatives on. Trickle down economics and financial deregulation have consistently failed to produce better living standards for all people, but instead have increased income inequality and funneled wealth only up to the top. The economic research demonstrates this pretty much conclusively.

I posted this before in another thread: www.theatlantic.com...



a reply to: Revolution9

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I guess is this:

If you have people at the bottom who are able to eat, clothe themselves and have housing, generally basic needs, then is a wealth gap a problem?

To create a hypothetical:

If everyone needs $20/day to have what they need, no frills, but it's there, and there is a time when this occurs, but at the same time, there are one or two people in your population who are creating $500+/day for themselves, is that a problem?

And if it is, why?

Giving to the poor and helping them shows you have a little human in you. Sure everyone act like rich # and see your falsley propped empires suffer longer than those you deny.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I guess is this:

If you have people at the bottom who are able to eat, clothe themselves and have housing, generally basic needs, then is a wealth gap a problem?

To create a hypothetical:

If everyone needs $20/day to have what they need, no frills, but it's there, and there is a time when this occurs, but at the same time, there are one or two people in your population who are creating $500+/day for themselves, is that a problem?

And if it is, why?

Well there are a few pieces to this:

1) Since the the late 70's, real wages and purchasing power have stagnated for virtually everyone but the very wealthy (accounting for inflation, etc). Literally flat lined, and in some cases gone down.

Meanwhile, the economic production (GDP/Capita) has gone up steadily. What this means emphatically is that this extra production and wealth, that has been created, has gone to only one group. The economy has improved, and only very wealthy people have extracted the profit from it. This doesn't mean we need "socialism," but it does demonstrate that only the elite are benefiting from any economic growth we have had. This is moral failure.

www.epi.org...

2) There are arguments by some economists that as income inequality becomes more extreme, it can have negative effects on the economy. www.huffingtonpost.com...

3) Your hypothetical I agree with. The most critical piece is whether the bottom or middle wage earners have a reasonable standard of living, nutrition, education access, health care access, social mobility, and so on. If they do not, then the income inequality and the above stagnated wages and capital accumulation by .01% is not acceptable. If we can get to a place where the bottom does (making that $20/day in your hypothetical), then this issue becomes less important.

www.theatlantic.com...

"Stiglitz describes the current situation as “a stark picture of a world gone wrong”: He notes that 91 percent of all income growth between 2009 and 2012 was enjoyed by the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans. In the first half of the book, Stiglitz focuses on the practices and policies that have gotten the country to this point. It is a familiar story: The demise of labor unions, the increasing financialization of the economy, and the lack of wealth-building opportunities in minority communities have made the rich richer while leaving everyone else to flounder. He lists off a bevy of other contributors too: weak wages, ineffective regulation and federal oversight, and a focus on short-term versus long-term growth, which embodies a preference for rewarding shareholders over workers and consumers."

There is something known as a poverty trap, which is usually describing more issues with countries or regions being stuck in poverty due to being unable to accumulate enough capital (of all kinds) to be able to become self sufficient.

economictimes.indiatimes.com...

Basically, the current structure doesn't meet a reasonableness or moral requirement.

a reply to: visitedbythem


Los Angeles and San Diego have so many homeless people pooping on the street, that a Hepatitis outbreak is feared.
www.foxnews.com...

Wanna help people? GREAT! Nothing wrong with you helping people. Nothing wrong with donations, helping or whatever you want to do.
What most people fail to realize is that this is our responsibility. NOT THE GOVERMENTS.
Everything the government does to help ends up making everything worse. It has the "anti-Midas" touch. Everything it touches turns to poop instead of gold.
Seriously, if you want to help the poor then do so. Just try and understand that it is not the governments place to do so.

Quad

originally posted by: Quadrivium
Wanna help people? GREAT! Nothing wrong with you helping people. Nothing wrong with donations, helping or whatever you want to do.
What most people fail to realize is that this is our responsibility. NOT THE GOVERMENTS.
Everything the government does to help ends up making everything worse. It has the "anti-Midas" touch. Everything it touches turns to poop instead of gold.
Seriously, if you want to help the poor then do so. Just try and understand that it is not the governments place to do so.

Quad

This perspective is limited. We have oligarchic people who basically are taking the majority of economic production, and none of the increase in GDP/capita has been shared with your average worker. That isn't "earning" that money, that's theft at some point.

This is something conservatives don't get. It's not "income redistribution" if the collection of wealth was partly unethical in the first place. Stop being naive and boot lickers for the extreme elite.

It would be like if we had a family of seven, and there were 10 hamburgers. Then, I take 6 of them for myself, but when some of those that have to split a hamburger complain, I tell them they are commies and how dare they take my hard earned hamburgers... It's absurd because it ignores that I took too many in the first place.

It's not "socialism" nor "oppressing rich people" if they took more than was reasonable in the first place. Also, this is where the government can play a reasonable role, in making sure that there are regulations in place that don't allow abject rape of the economy by a very very small elite, which is basically what has happened since deregulation in the late 70's, early 80's.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Quadrivium
Wanna help people? GREAT! Nothing wrong with you helping people. Nothing wrong with donations, helping or whatever you want to do.
What most people fail to realize is that this is our responsibility. NOT THE GOVERMENTS.
Everything the government does to help ends up making everything worse. It has the "anti-Midas" touch. Everything it touches turns to poop instead of gold.
Seriously, if you want to help the poor then do so. Just try and understand that it is not the governments place to do so.

Quad

This perspective is limited. We have oligarchic people who basically are taking the majority of economic production, and none of the increase in GDP/capita has been shared with your average worker. That isn't "earning" that money, that's theft at some point.

You want to earn more? Get a better job.
No good paying jobs in your area? Move.
Unskilled? Learn.

This is something conservatives don't get. It's not "income redistribution" if the collection of wealth was partly unethical in the first place. Stop being naive and boot lickers for the extreme elite.

Stop acting like a spoiled brat who thinks they are owed something for nothing. GROW UP.

It would be like if we had a family of seven, and there were 10 hamburgers. Then, I take 6 of them for myself, but when some of those that have to split a hamburger complain, I tell them they are commies and how dare they take my hard earned hamburgers... It's absurd because it ignores that I took too many in the first place.

That is a STUPID analogy. The government is not your family.

It's not "socialism" nor "oppressing rich people" if they took more than was reasonable in the first place. Also, this is where the government can play a reasonable role, in making sure that there are regulations in place that don't allow abject rape of the economy by a very very small elite, which is basically what has happened since deregulation in the late 70's, early 80's.

How blind can you be? Abject rape of the economy? What the hell do you think the government is doing? Most of your would be protectors are bought and paid for by the very people you are complaining about. That is what is wrong now. The government has had it's hands in the system too much but not to benefit the middle or lower class.
Let me guess, you also support Obama Care? Guess what........
It was not put in place to help anyone but the Insurance companies. Less and less young people were taking out policies while more and more of the baby boomers were getting older and sicker. No money coming in for the insurance companies so they get the government involved to make people buy policies.
As I said, it's time to grow up; however old you are.

originally posted by: Quadrivium

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Quadrivium
Wanna help people? GREAT! Nothing wrong with you helping people. Nothing wrong with donations, helping or whatever you want to do.
What most people fail to realize is that this is our responsibility. NOT THE GOVERMENTS.
Everything the government does to help ends up making everything worse. It has the "anti-Midas" touch. Everything it touches turns to poop instead of gold.
Seriously, if you want to help the poor then do so. Just try and understand that it is not the governments place to do so.

Quad

This perspective is limited. We have oligarchic people who basically are taking the majority of economic production, and none of the increase in GDP/capita has been shared with your average worker. That isn't "earning" that money, that's theft at some point.

You want to earn more? Get a better job.
No good paying jobs in your area? Move.
Unskilled? Learn.

This is something conservatives don't get. It's not "income redistribution" if the collection of wealth was partly unethical in the first place. Stop being naive and boot lickers for the extreme elite.

Stop acting like a spoiled brat who thinks they are owed something for nothing. GROW UP.

It would be like if we had a family of seven, and there were 10 hamburgers. Then, I take 6 of them for myself, but when some of those that have to split a hamburger complain, I tell them they are commies and how dare they take my hard earned hamburgers... It's absurd because it ignores that I took too many in the first place.

That is a STUPID analogy. The government is not your family.

It's not "socialism" nor "oppressing rich people" if they took more than was reasonable in the first place. Also, this is where the government can play a reasonable role, in making sure that there are regulations in place that don't allow abject rape of the economy by a very very small elite, which is basically what has happened since deregulation in the late 70's, early 80's.

How blind can you be? Abject rape of the economy? What the hell do you think the government is doing? Most of your would be protectors are bought and paid for by the very people you are complaining about. That is what is wrong now. The government has had it's hands in the system too much but not to benefit the middle or lower class.
Let me guess, you also support Obama Care? Guess what........
It was not put in place to help anyone but the Insurance companies. Less and less young people were taking out policies while more and more of the baby boomers were getting older and sicker. No money coming in for the insurance companies so they get the government involved to make people buy policies.
As I said, it's time to grow up; however old you are.

Oh please, your response just utterly failed to address any of my points in this thread. I have a decent job already, thanks.

www.theguardian.com...

Your response was not only juvenile, but completes misses the mark in addressing the fact that yes, a small oligarchy of extremely rich people is extracting virtually all of the economic growth. It's literally an economic fact, as the data shows. While the government does take taxes, yes, it's a small group of corporations and hyper rich people who have collected most of the capital.

How about YOU grow up, educate yourself on the actual extractive nature of the economy and the fact that our government is virtually owned by these very powerful people, and then come ready to discuss solutions to that.

Your "but but american dream and pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "muh taxes and government are evil" is immature and doesn't match what scholars would say on these topics. See the "myth of the meritocracy."

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Again, grow up.
Work on your reading comprehension and stop contradicting yourself.

Sadly, I do see more and more people begging. Where I live, you find people begging at or near every supermarket and shopping area.

Some of the community parks are now kind of scary if you walk through them early in the mornings. The homeless have camped in a number of areas and usually clear out after 9 in the morning or so, but I wouldn't let kids walk in those areas before then. I'm sure some people have substance abuse issues. Some can be seen talking or shouting to themselves.

We also have them sleeping in the doorways of businesses. I'm not going to roust them to get into those businesses.

The real question(s) is what to do about this. It doesn't matter what political party you follow. The homeless exist. What do we as a society need to do to help those that can be helped?

Some of the homeless that I see, in my opinion, are a danger to themselves and to others. Some probably just need a hand up. Some are clearly not interested in work and prefer to live on the fringes of our society.

So, enough blaming. Try to come up with a solution.

a reply to: Wildbob77
Agreed

originally posted by: Quadrivium
Wanna help people? GREAT! Nothing wrong with you helping people. Nothing wrong with donations, helping or whatever you want to do.
What most people fail to realize is that this is our responsibility. NOT THE GOVERMENTS.

It is our responsibility to help our brothers and sisters. But...If, as some do, we are going to expect the govt to do the helping on our behest, then it's incumbent upon us to make sure it isn't the "anti-Midas touch". But too few who want the govt to be the nanny are willing to take that additional step, and make sure it's done right. That lack of the additional step is why it is, as it is.

Everything the government does to help ends up making everything worse. It has the "anti-Midas" touch. Everything it touches turns to poop instead of gold.

If we can't be bothered to exercise our oversight, we are their bosses after all, then I'm not sure what else we can expect...other than poop.

Seriously, if you want to help the poor then do so. Just try and understand that it is not the governments place to do so.

Quad

I agree. But...if we're going to allow the govt to "help", then we'd best damned sure practice oversight on them.

originally posted by: Quadrivium
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Again, grow up.
Work on your reading comprehension and stop contradicting yourself.

I still haven't seen you address any of my points in any real way, besides calling them stupid and saying I should grow up. You sound like you are triggered.

Again, most actual experts and economists are pointing to the deregulation and advent of neo-liberal policies over the past 3-4 decades that have created the situation we are in. I posted in this thread just a few sources on that. Just deregulating everything further isn't the answer, and those who think it is are either being dishonest because they are in the elite and it would benefit them, or are blind believers in an outdated, disproven philosophy.

That is separate from the obamacare issue. I am talking about economic inequality here.

Going back to the government intervention point here, there do have to be some essential services provided or aided by government. Prior to for example "socialized" and mandatory education in the US, a large portion of people either were illiterate or only achieved a low level of education. This is especially true for the poor. Just as it is in developing countries today, in which i have worked, where in many of them, large swaths of the poor live in abject poverty, with little educational, nutritional, or health care standards of living.

Charity, while good, is simply insufficient to address systems and the needs of huge populations. You have asserted that I need to grow up, but you show an infantile understanding of development, policy, and societal systems.

originally posted by: Quadrivium
Just try and understand that it is not the governments place to do so.

Quad

Um, the government put laws in place to counter stealing.
If a government requires an economics plan, it better supply it's own dividends.

If a guy needs a loaf of bread but is born lame it's whoever requires payment who should put up the money.
FFS

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Quadrivium
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Again, grow up.
Work on your reading comprehension and stop contradicting yourself.

I still haven't seen you address any of my points in any real way, besides calling them stupid and saying I should grow up. You sound like you are triggered.

You have no points. You have "feelings". Not worth me getting triggered over.
You also contradict yourself and want to argue when we actually agree.
See this? by you:

Your "but but american dream and pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "muh taxes and government are evil" is immature and doesn't match what scholars would say on these topics.

And this? by you:

educate yourself on the actual extractive nature of the economy and the fact that our government is virtually owned by these very powerful people

How about this? By me:

What the hell do you think the government is doing? Most of your would be protectors are bought and paid for by the very people you are complaining about. That is what is wrong now. The government has had it's hands in the system too much but not to benefit the middle or lower class.

Clearly you do not want to discuss anything. You want to argue. Not happening, maybe when you have matured a little more.

a reply to: seagull

This is the heart of the beast. WE have failed one another. WE have let the government run ramped. Sadly, many now a days look at the government like their mommy and daddy and are scared to question it in anyway.

It's odd people are blaming Trump for the homelessness and the poor. Especially since it appears Obama wasn't able to stop it all. From the OP link:

On the other hand, observers have been surprised that the White House has honored the invitation to host Alston after the initial offer was extended by Barack Obama. US diplomats on more than one occasion since Trump’s inauguration have said they welcomed the UN party

Maybe Trump will be able to address and act on these growing problems of lack of mental health treatment, opiate addiction and homeless issues since it appears the situations exploded under the last administration.

I just went and visited my old long time 'home' area since moving quite far away about 8 years ago. The area back then had no homeless and was clean and neat. It is now crawling with filth - litter and debris everywhere.... over several cities. Homelessness and crime has increased tenfold. It was heartbreaking. Many of the homeless I spoke to weren't from the area originally and had relocated from other states just in the last 4 years. I learned quite a bit after I bought a few rounds of hot coffee a couple of mornings and made some hand deliveries while chit chatting. The area has been growing like crazy which created a housing shortage which also caused housing prices to go through the roof. Rent and home purchases are extremely expensive. Many long time residents are fed up with the over population and deteriorating yet expensive conditions and are looking for less populated areas to move to.

Every country has homeless. The problem in the US seems to be growing by leaps and bounds despite the massive financial assistance to combat the issue.

It took much time to get to this level and it will take time to fix it.