Know Your Zero

For all the nostalgic Avnerds out there that long for the days of pistons and black and white movies. Oh, and Ronald Reagan too:

a reply to: Sammamishman

Who can miss those big red meatballs on the wings? Oh, its black and white, never mind.

The initial footage of a zero being put thru its paces in the beginning of the video is from the Akutan Zero. Shot down in Alaska, refurbished and flown by test pilots, shown in the film. It was the first ever acquisition of one of Japans deadly fighters. Lucky US, they had trouble getting hold of one becase at that time , early in the conflict, the Zero was most agile and deadly.

All future fighter development of the US military was based on defeating the features of the most capable Japanese Zero.

Wiki

originally posted by: Sammamishman
For all the nostalgic Avnerds out there that long for the days of pistons and black and white movies. Oh, and Ronald Reagan too:

Also, know your dope fiend.

a reply to: Sammamishman

I was most of the way through the film before I recognized former President Reagan as the main character.

As a young boy in America during the years of the war, I retain many memories. I have hopes that such events as world wars are conflicts of the past, that the urge to conquer for ideology and territory have been tamped down enough that they will never consume any of us again.

a reply to: face23785

Nice job of trying to rain on another's parade.

a reply to: Aliensun

Nice job of not having a sense of humor.

a reply to: intrptr

they had trouble getting hold of one becase at that time , early in the conflict, the Zero was most agile and deadly. 

While the Zero outclassed most everything in the Pacific for the first year and a half of that theatre, even more to the point, early in the conflict, the Zero had an unfortunate tendency to burst into flames when they were hit due to the lack of self-sealing fuel cells. That made salvage, recovery, and evaluation extremely difficult. The Aleutian landing was a fortunate gift, needing relatively minor repair.

a reply to: RadioRobert

While the Zero outclassed most everything in the Pacific for the first year and a half of that theatre, even more to the point, early in the conflict, the Zero had an unfortunate tendency to burst into flames when they were hit due to the lack of self-sealing fuel cells.

They couldn't get hold of one because it was so agile, they had yet to engage and shoot one down. They were agile because they were light construction, their primary vulnerability, like you said. They found that out after capturing one.

Yes they outclassed everything early on, even the Flying Tigers, who directed their attacks against flights of Japanese bombers, avoiding the Zero fighter protection by making hi speed diving passes thru bomber formations and extending away to escape the zeros.

If they had stayed to fight they would have incurred more losses.

The losses from zeros were high early on because of its lightweight construction, 20 mm cannon and agility in air to air combat. Up until they captured one, they plane had a Mystique reputation because most of the engagements ended in the US plane being shot down.

a reply to: intrptr

Most of the aircraft that went on to help defeat this particular scourge were already in the pipeline--testing, and/or full scale manufacturing.

The Chance-Vought F4U Corsair, as an example, first flew in 1940. The Grumman F6F Hellcat was already on the design boards, with its first flight in June of '42...it was always intended as a replacement for the almost adequate Grumman F4F Wildcat. The Lockheed P-38 Lightning was first flown in 1939. Other notable Zero antagonists like the P-47 Thunderbolt (May '41), and the Curtiss P-40 Warhawk/Tomahawk/Kittyhawk (Oct. '38), all flew, or were entering serial production, before the US "officially" encountered the Zero for the first time over Pearl Harbor, and the Philippine Islands in Dec '41. Though reports from US mercenaries flying for Chiang Ki-Shek Nationalist forces had sent reports back about this fabulous new Japanese fighter that was flying rings around everything else in the air. Actually there was another Japanese aircraft that was just as good as the Zero, but gets less press...the Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar. The IJN flew the Zero/Zeke, and the Army flew the Oscar.

The find of that Zero on Akutan (I've actually visited the site where the aircraft crashed...a more desolate spot to die is hard to imagine...) was a God sent gift. The testing exposed all its weaknesses and strengths to be avoided and taken advantage of.

It was more the increased and better training that made all the difference, along with much better aircraft. But the Zero, in all its incarnations, remained a dangerous opponent throughout the war, even in its later days. Underestimate it at your peril.

a reply to: seagull

From the Wiki I linked...

Data from the captured Zero had been transmitted to the U.S. Navy's Bureau of Aeronautics (BuAer) and Grumman Aircraft. After careful study, Roy Grumman decided that he could match or surpass the Zero in most respects, except in range, without sacrificing pilot armor, self-sealing tanks and fuselage structure. The new F6F Hellcat would compensate for the extra weight with additional power.

analysis

They compensated for the agility of the zero to turn inside an opponent by adding power to avoid getting shot from behind during maneuvering.

They made this additional change to the Hell Cat based on studying the Zero's performance characteristics.
It wasn't just the Zero. The Japanese conquered South East Asia by combined air, ground and naval forces, the Zero being one unknown component early on.

Once analyzed and once US forces ramped up to fight back, it didn't matter as much.

But thats a whole other topic.

a reply to: intrptr

They did upgrade the engine prior to deployment--from a Wright R-2600 that put out 1700 hp to a Pratt and Whitney R-2800-10 that added an additional 300 hp.

I'd forgotten that little tidbit... Or not so little, that engine was a brute. Thanks.

The discussion is reminding me of the old History Channel show (back when they had actual history shows) Dogfights.

Dogfights on Youtube

a reply to: intrptr

They couldn't get hold of one because it was so agile, they had yet to engage and shoot one down

That's patently false.

There were. Nine A6M losses at Pearl alone. Experience in the CBI led to effective tactics using the strengths of the heavier fighters, namely P-40's and Hurricanes. The Thatch-Weave was implemented successfully well before evaluation of the Aleutian Zero. The Battles of Coral Sea, Wake Island, Midway, etc, etc all took place before the Aleutian Zero made it's first flight (in the US).

ETA: none of this takes away from the A6M as a class ahead of the early competition, ideally suited for a Pacific theatre.

Awesome find I love old propaganda stuff from both sides.

The other issue with the Zero was that while it had an advantage in the outset of the war, its bigger advantage was the skill of the pilots. Maneuvers like the Thatch Weave were developed as simple survival in those opening days

However, they were never able to replace them and they simply flew until killed. Also, Japan was never able to sustain the rapid development that the US was able too by mid war. By the time you get to the Marianas Turkey Shoot, the US had superior planes and the pilot by and large outclassed their Japanese counterparts

The other think people forget is fuel. The US was the biggest supplier of 100 octane aviation gas and it made a difference in the Battle of Brittan. It allowed for better performance

Studying the Zero,s construction at the moment for a customer project.It was one of the first planes to utilise exclusively 7075 aluminium in its airframe where the rest of the world was using lesser 2024 grade.Frame material thickness was comparable with British planes at .040" but with much more lightening holes.This made the airframe just as strong but lighter than allied planes of the time.A P40 in regard used a lot of heavier gauge aluminium and steel.
The later Zeros had bullet proof glass and a firefighting system added to prevent fires in the engine cockpit area.Self sealing fuel tanks utilised rubber which I think was hard to find in Japan.Zero tanks were aluminium.
Radios were not always fitted and armour plate went against the culture of the Samurai.Range was what made it deadly as it appeared over allied airbases well beyond our own planes abilities.This was achieved by using low RPM and high boost settings plus long range fuel tanks..

The 194 0 Japanese zero was actually a 1936 American design.

V-1 41
en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: intrptr

They couldn't get hold of one because it was so agile, they had yet to engage and shoot one down

That's patently false.

There were. Nine A6M losses at Pearl alone. Experience in the CBI led to effective tactics using the strengths of the heavier fighters, namely P-40's and Hurricanes. The Thatch-Weave was implemented successfully well before evaluation of the Aleutian Zero. The Battles of Coral Sea, Wake Island, Midway, etc, etc all took place before the Aleutian Zero made it's first flight (in the US).

ETA: none of this takes away from the A6M as a class ahead of the early competition, ideally suited for a Pacific theatre.

Well thanks for agreeing with me anyway. None of the earlier zeros shot down were salvageable, how many were defeated in air to air combat? Don't forget, once disabled zero pilots didn't bail out, if they could they made sure their aircraft weas destroyed by diving them into the ground.

The battle of coral sea took place two months prior to finding the zero, the coral sea was a tactical victory for Japan even though the invasion was repelled. US lost a carrier.

Other battles you mention were attacks by the Japanese against land forces at Pearl Harbor, Midway and Wake Island. Not sure your point about that other than simply disagreeing.

a reply to: intrptr

They couldn't get hold of one because it was so agile, they had yet to engage and shoot one down...

None of the earlier zeros shot down were salvageable...

Not sure your point about that other than simply disagreeing.

Probably the same point I made in my first post...

even more to the point, early in the conflict, the Zero had an unfortunate tendency to burst into flames when they were hit due to the lack of self-sealing fuel cells. That made salvage, recovery, and evaluation extremely difficult.

As opposed to your blanket assertion that they couldn't get one because if was never engaged successfully engaged, despite the fact many were in fact lost prior to that.
You latest blanket statement is also wrong as several airframes in the CBI were cannibalized in Tietsanby the Chinese and Americans to produce a flying Zero previous to the Akutan, indeed previous to the US's formal entrance of the war, having occurred in Nov of 1941.

I guess my point is that while the Aluetian Zero was an intelligence coup, it wasn't because the A6Ms had never been shot down or had never been salvaged. It was a coup because it was the first to be systematically put through its paces in the US and thoroughly documented.

The only reason I'm contributing or "arguing" is that while the general posts' themes seem to be more or less accurate, you pepper those same posts with broad, blanket statements of "fact", several of which are demonstrably untrue and/or misleading Eg: many Zeroes were shot down prior to the Aleutian campaign. It wasn't the first salvageable Zero. Experience had already led to many effective counters. Most of the pacific fighters were well on their way to or through production before the Aleutian Zero was evaluated. Etc, etc

a reply to: RadioRobert

I guess my point is that while the Aluetian Zero was an intelligence coup, it wasn't because the A6Ms had never been shot down or had never been salvaged. It was a coup because it was the first to be systematically put through its paces in the US and thoroughly documented.

Per snickety difference.

Thanks for agreeing with me again.