Death of White Supremacy: 95 yrs ago TutanKhamun tomb was first opened by Archaeologists

Not a personal attack, but I don't get why a person with such a limited knowledge in Egyptology would start a thread like this.
I have only a limited knowledge but even I know certain basics.
Like Byrd mentioned about Egyptian women, they wore wigs as they shaved their hair due to lice and other nasty bittie things....a fairly interesting fact I must say.
It strikes me as odd that you are quite blinkered in your opinions and ignore honest to god facts.

a reply to: sapien82

You're welcome Sepiens, ancient Egypt is great, and it's for everyone one on the planet it's part of the world's heritage, however I believed what's often overlooked is Egypt in it's African context, it is often treated as a civilization on African soil but not of it, only recently have scholars began to look beyond Egypt itself for it's connection to inner Africa from which it sprang.

As much as I love ancient Egypt, I'm equally interested in all of Africa's classic civilizations,

Ta-Seti
the 1st Pharaonic state on the Nile who gave Egypt it's political frame work symbols of royalty, later becoming Egypt's 1st Nome aka Nubia

Kush,
Egypt's major rival and trading partner these guys proved to be just as grabby as their northern rivals, swallowing all the political entities on the Nile wrestled with Egypt back and forth got hit but clapped back all the way to the Mediterranean.

Axum
major rivals of Kush putting its lights out , rosed to become one of the most powerful empire not only in Africa but the world, according to a contemporary it was one of 4 super powers of the day equal to Byzantine Rome, Persia and China.

Wagadu
aka Ghana whose roots in urbanization coincide with Egypt"s first dyn, but fully bloomed by 2500 BC on the far end of the other side of the continent. They made massive stone cities in places like Dar Titchit.
Mali
Songhai
Kenam Bornu
The super urbanized Swahili city states major traders on the Indian ocean.

Mapungubwe the 1st state in Southern Africa.

Zimbabwe
it's medieval contender and replacement to Mapungubwe major traders with the Swahili states an important terminal link to the massive Indian ocean trade routes.
This is just part of my interest , love me some, Rome, Greek, Norse especially their stories and .mythologies, Japanese history.
Much much more.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: peter vlar

Any good pharmacy can sale you a very efficient antidandruff shampoo of tar.

You can use it for decades, it may cure any dandruff in your scalp but to change the color of your scalp permanently is very unlikely.

You can write to the manufacturer and ask if you dont trust me.

Let me repeat you this to be sure you can grasp it:

It does not matter how much frequently use it, no single cent was going to be reimbursed you in case you want to sue him for lack of power to dye your skin.

And let me explain this to you so that YOU may grasp it... He wasn't washing his hair with dandruff shampoo. He wasn't likely to wash his hair period as most Egyptians of means shaved their heads completely and wore wigs. Wrap that historical fact around your condescending head. Your willful ignorance is not my cross to bare. The entire body was coated in bitumen after natron and a whole host of other drying and curing agents were used to dry the body out. Then the body was wrapped in linens, then another layer of resin, then wrapped again, then more resin, more wrapping.... this went on for several layers. After a few thousand years in the dry desert heat, the bitumen resin was indistinguishable from the skin as it was a hard layer. And then there's the fact that when Carter was trying to get all the lovely trinkets off of Tut's remains, they destroyed the body so badly that there is no way to determine his skin color from observation alone. I would tell you about the genetic data but you've been quite clear that you prefer willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance to learning and adding to your knowledge when it has been brought up by others.

By the way Gral Anwar Sadat didn't bath himself in tar daily to get that color of skin, he was born in that way either you like it or not, you need to learn to live with that historic reality.

The Angel of Lightness

And? You're comparing a modern Egyptian to an ancient Egyptian. That's like saying that Neanderthal had an occipital bun and no supraorbital ridge because that's how modern Europeans look. Nobody is claiming that Tut was a Caucasian, his appearance was much closer to Semitic people and the Libyan people based on his genetics. Get a library card before you bust out the condescension in the future.

a reply to: Spider879

Yeah, the history of Africa is all but ignored, at least here in the U.S. It's really quite problematic because people see only the embers of post colonialism and make assumptions based on that. I've lost count of the number of times that people have implied that evolution can not be true if HSS began in Africa because there are no great civilizations there. I had to find all of that information on my own and it wasn't until college that I was exposed to above of the above mentioned. The only exception was Mali. It's a shame because the history is beyond rich and the lack of understanding of that rich history seems to feed into rampant Eurocentrism.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Spider879

Yeah, the history of Africa is all but ignored, at least here in the U.S. It's really quite problematic because people see only the embers of post colonialism and make assumptions based on that. I've lost count of the number of times that people have implied that evolution can not be true if HSS began in Africa because there are no great civilizations there. I had to find all of that information on my own and it wasn't until college that I was exposed to above of the above mentioned. The only exception was Mali. It's a shame because the history is beyond rich and the lack of understanding of that rich history seems to feed into rampant Eurocentrism.

Like you, Africa's contribution to history was sadly neglected in my public school days, along with the mention of any notable Blacks in America (this, however, was in the 1950's.) I've since learned much more about this fascinating continent and all its states and nations that simply wasn't easy to find when I was a child. We did have some information in encyclopedias but they generally showed us pictures of people in grass skirts and wattle huts and it left a rather odd impression of the area. Ditto various hunting films and books on Africa.

a reply to: Byrd

I graduated high school in '91 and the only African history we learned was Ancient Egypt. We learned more about India and Mesopotamia and what we learned about India was for the most part, relegated to the Umayyad conquest and Indus Valley Civ. so it doesn't appear that things progressed a whole lot between your primary school education and mine.

Luckily for my kids, I've got a decent sized library here. Though they may disagree with that being a lucky thing because I like to make them read on the 6 1/2 hour drive from home to our property in Maine. They did however really enjoy when I took them to Tulum last year and have asked repeatedly to see other Mayan sites and were excited when I told them that at Chacchoben you can still walk on the pyramids so I'll probably go there again so that they get to enjoy it before someone falls, gets hurt and they close it off to the public.

a reply to: peter vlar

Yes Peter and what's more, all the major ones, had contacts and influence way beyond their boundaries in Africa, it was the Savannah States of West Africa who banked rolled the Moorish invasions of Medieval Europe, also supplied troops for that endeavor.

In Wagadu aka Ghana for example, an Arab writer called Ibn Hawqal in 950 ad witness a merchant writing another merchant a check for 42,000 golden dinars, yes I said checks
And that's a lot of money changing private hands and not of kings
, they also had stock exchanges, banking systems, uniform control of weights and measures, how to control inflation etc.

An African merchant called Baba Gor along with companions from the empire of Kenem Bornu in west Africa, traveled across the trade routes to Ethiopia stopped in Mecca, and continued their journey to India where he became a holy man, his shrine and festival is still celebrated to this day among the Afro/Indian communities..surely he is made of the same stuff as Marco Polo,
and Ibn Battuta.

and he wasn't unusual, the Swahili and the Ajuran sultanate of Somalia had their own trading entrepots in China alongside the Arabs, Persians and Indians.

a reply to: Spider879

This is why I enjoy when you post in threads like this... You know a hell of a lot more about this area than I do and while arguing with religious fanatics about the legitimacy of evolution is mildly entertaining, the reason I have an account on ATS is the diversity of its membership and the knowledge base they bring to the table. It's a free education and I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts for that very reason. I know a little here and there and most of the basics but what you bring to the table is above and beyond so thank you for that.

It really is a shame that European colonialism ended all of that and regressed these once great nations and relegated them to the history books.

a reply to: Spider879
What he ^ said.

Unfortunately, the real FSMEs seem to be leaving what seems to be a very leaky boat.

(Byrd, stay.)

It sounds like a slightly better thought out version of "look look look we wuz kangs n sheet"

a reply to: Argus100

First at all your claim is false, and it is released here maliciously, The mother of Anwar Sadat was Egyptian born, another different thing is that her father, only him, was Sudanese from the very border with Egypt. People in the border of the two countries are indistinctly Nubians and that is not going to change if your birth is to the north or the south of the limit.

Now, If you check ancient maps of Egypt you possibly can determine that todays border with Sudan was meaningless in those times, Egyptian empire extended well beyond south from the region of Aswan, and that border province has two of the most monumental temples of all Egypt: Philae and Abu Simbel.

Please check:

Temple of Isis at Philae

Abu Simbel Marvel of the world moved when Aswan Dam was built

It is disgusting this fascist try to remove the Egyptian passport from one of the most iconic Egyptians ever as Anwar Sadat just because he had a very Nubian aspect and dark skin.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Why do you insist that anyone who doesn't view the world through your eyes to be presenting things in a malicious manner? Has it ever occurred to you that you, as a human being/Homo Sapiens Sapiens, could in fact be wrong sometimes?

Or do you believe yourself to be somehow infallible and living within the grace of perfection? You have made a multitude of claims and presented it all as undeniable fact despite the fact that you are utilizing your personal opinions, personal interpretations and misunderstanding of facts as well as some out there reaches of confirmation bias.

You have quite the ego on you for someone who doesn't understand the basics of various sciences you claim are completely incorrect, all while YOU are somehow protected from the curse of and some glaring errors in history. One example being the parents of Anwar Sadat.

Sadat Wiki

Anwar Sadat was born on 25 December 1918 in Mit Abu El Kom, Monufia, Egypt to a poor Nubian family, one of 13 brothers and sisters

In this context, "Nubian" specifically means from Sudan or the southern most part of Egypt.
Nubian

Nubians are an ethnolinguistic group indigenous to present-day Sudan and southern Egypt

So let us go back to Sadat's mother shall we? (This is also linked from Sadat's wiki page as cited above)

His father, Anwar Mohammed El Sadat was an Upper Egyptian, and his mother, Sit Al-Berain, was Sudanese from her father.[9][10] Thus, they said his mother did not look "Egyptian enough" and some called him "Nasser's black poodle."

You will need google translate or such to read this next one
www.masress.com...



C. J. De Wet (2006). Development-induced Displacement: Problems, Policies, and People. Berghahn Books. p. 198. ISBN 978-1-84545-095-3. Retrieved 31 January 2013.
Poodle reference-
Khalid, Sunni M. (February 7, 2011). "The Root: Race And Racism Divide Egypt". npr.org. Retrieved March 3, 2011.


And just to dot our I's and cross our T's we have this reference as well...

Sadat's momma

Who is Sit Al-Berain?
Sit Al-Berain was the mother of Anwar Sadat.
◾nationality: Sudan
◾Marriage with Anwar Muhammed El Sadat
◾parent of Anwar Sadat

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Well much of 19th century scholarship set the ball in motion, and this have had an effect on pop culture, they created the Hamitic myth, that every thing of value in Africa was created by wandering dark Caucasoid, today's science have largely gotten rid of such nonsense, but in pop culture it still lingers and can have tragic consequences ,most notable the Rwandan genocide of Hutus slaughtering Tutsi , the Belgians liked the Tutsi better because of their tall gracial looks , called them Hamatic, made them the upper crust of that society, while the Hutus with broad features the servant class, called them Negroid , this went on till the Tutsi decided they could make better rulers than the Belgians, sensing the resentment of the Hutus ,they began arming them, the result was decades of war and uneasy
peace, the last flair up was such that , it seems both groups, have come to live together after hostilities, they even banned the words Tutsi and Hutu from use, now they are simply Rwandans.

Eurasian admixture in the DNA of Northeast Africa is quite established. There is really not a lot of debate over the reality of that.

journals.plos.org.../journal.pgen.1006976


The stuff that is interesting is the cultural achievements that are being discovered deeper in Africa, like in Zimbabwe. Down there there isn't much European Dna.

Personally, I suspect the reason we don't hear as much about those is because they fell into decline too long ago, and so Europe never had contact with them.

Maybe the spread of Islam had something to do with their decline? Being too far away to participate in conquests? Islam has always been good at foreign trade. Not quite as effective at internal trade. Morocco did really well, as did all the areas with connection to the silk road. But what non-Muslim nation would Zimbabwe have traded with in the 7th century?

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: The angel of light

funny as I read this today I went to the bathroom and through my jet black beard I can see all the red hair coming through.
My sister has red hair , and my uncles and cousins.
My cousin has get black hair like me but his black hair ends at his sideburns where it changes into a red hair , so funny he has a two tone head.

Hair can also turn red after death, even if a person is completely black haired.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Actually Eurasian DNA is present in all Africans and the reverse is true for Eurasians , as for Zimbabwe?? They traded gold, Ivory and I think Iron, to the coastal Swahili, in return they got porcelain ,silk etc from China, and other luxury items, the Silk road was one trade route , the Indian ocean another, and as I said earlier, Zimbabwe was the terminal or starting point of that international trade,

they controlled the coastal city of Sofola but allowed the Swahili and Somali to conduct the overseas leg of the trading on their behalf , plus pay rent and commissions
not only that but such trade predates the rise of Islam or Christianity for that matter, going way beyond the Ptolemaic times,read Periplus of the Erythrean Sea, a Greco/Egyptian classic.

The port city of Raptha in Tanzania was discovered not too long ago, have a thread on it.

Gongs of Akan origins were found also in Zimbabwe, Akans like the Ashanti is in far away West Africa.
And no the spread of Islam had nothing o do with their decline, that cause was
European intrusions beginning in the 16th century, mainly from the Portuguese, who disrupted the trade causing instability, they blasted the coastal cities , mismanaged the route and trade links, had they just taxed the locals instead of trying to conquer them, maybe the turn out would have been different.

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: bloodymarvelous



Gongs of Akan origins were found also in Zimbabwe, Akans like the Ashanti is in far away West Africa.
And no the spread of Islam had nothing o do with their decline, that cause was
European intrusions beginning in the 16th century, mainly from the Portuguese, who disrupted the trade causing instability, they blasted the coastal cities , mismanaged the route and trade links, had they just taxed the locals instead of trying to conquer them, maybe the turn out would have been different.

That explains it then. So, I guess that means that for most of their history they had little or no contact with Europe (although plenty of contact with Asia.) And then the first contact they had with Europe was getting conquered.

Whereas Egypt gets more attention because its history plays into Europe's history, being the starting point for Greece's academia, which became the foundation of Rome's academia, and then the rest of Europe got its academic foundation from the Romans. But everything goes back in some manner or another to Egypt.

If you can demonstrate that the Egyptians were of Sub Saharan African origin, then that demonstrates that Sub Saharan African people are capable of making contributions to academic knowledge. (Which I think is where all this controversy is coming from: A need to establish that a popular steroetype has been disproven historically.)

Success at trade is good too, but it doesn't demonstrate academics necessarily. The Vikings were pretty good traders too, but we don't inherit much academic knowledge from them.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
That explains it then. So, I guess that means that for most of their history they had little or no contact with Europe (although plenty of contact with Asia.) And then the first contact they had with Europe was getting conquered.

Northern Africa had a lot of contact with Europeans and parts were at one time or another a colony of Rome. Some very long trade routes stretched across all of North Africa; trade beyond the Sahara was more limited but did exist.

Whereas Egypt gets more attention because its history plays into Europe's history, being the starting point for Greece's academia, which became the foundation of Rome's academia, and then the rest of Europe got its academic foundation from the Romans. But everything goes back in some manner or another to Egypt.

That's kind of sideways. Egypt developed a lot of early knowledge, particularly medical knowledge. But they didn't have quite the learning centers that Greece had. I think what made the Greek academies possible was a larger middle and upper class - in Egypt, only scribes and priests could read well. Nobles learned to read and work supervisors learned enough to follow a bill of lading or similar documents. We see some poetry and so forth, but Greece with its public schools and plays was the country that fostered philosophy as a science around 600 BC - about the time of Egypt's collapse and conquest by the Assyrians and later by the Macedonian Greeks and the Romans. Greeks also encouraged the spread of literature and rational thought with plays and contests for songs and poetry and drama. Playwrights and poets and philosophers gained fame from their work.

In Egypt, this didn't happen.

Ptolemy I, the Macedonian Greek, believed in education and it was he that started the great library and university in Alexandria -- however, this education was mainly for Greeks. The Ptolemies preferred for the Egyptians to remain peasants - a work force to till the land and grow the valuable wheat while the conquerors did other things that didn't involve getting their hands dirty.

For a time, Alexandria became a center for science and philosophy but after the Ptolemys (when the whole country was deeded over to Rome by Cleopatra's father in exchange for the Romans helping him get back on the throne) it declined. Like the Greeks, the Romans wanted the Egyptians to shut up and farm wheat. The best scholars and tutors were brought to Rome... and it goes on from there.

If you can demonstrate that the Egyptians were of Sub Saharan African origin, then that demonstrates that Sub Saharan African people are capable of making contributions to academic knowledge.

There were many great civilizations on the African continent (which is larger than North America (click to see jpg))

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Keep in mind the continent is huge roughly the size of the moon, however, the Almoravids started on the banks of the Senegalese river and reached the Ebro river in Iberia under the Lamtuna leadership, these set up learning centers in Iberia, where Europeans came to study, these were labeled Muzarbs,

they were not necessarily converts, but for sure They knew of Mali and Mali knew of them, as they knew of at least one of their kings, Mansa Musa , European cartographers had him seated on a throne holding a golden nugget for over two hundred yrs, as he was the world's richest individual ever!!.

According to Forbes magazine, Bill Gates would look broke in comparison, his cities may have been distant geographically but they were certainly no fringe backwater,
It was an international hub, from the rest of the world's POV, much of Europe at the time was the lonely girl standing in the corner of the party.

And note I said "tried" to conquer the locals, but the Portuguese did disrupt the trade links, the Portuguese knew Zimbabwe they had contact, but became grabby and war developed in which they were killed to a man.
Almost every early military encounter between Europeans and Africans south of the desert ended in destaster.

The Portuguese never returned , trade dried up the empire splintered and were finally done in by the ancestors of people like the Zulus.


Matter of fact most of Africa and it's kingdoms did not fall until the late 19th early 20 centuries, the Ethiopians sent deplomictic missions a number of times to the Vatican during the 12th century, Christian Nubia took part in the Crusades.

Upgrade in European fire power was the game changer..
[Whatever happens We have the Maxim gun and they have not.]

I cannot pinpoint exactly when amnesia set about regarding Africa's relationship to Europe, my guess the massive slave trade had something to do with it.

The kingdom of the Kongo had a really great relationship with Portugal and the Vatican, African nobleman who became knights was not uncommon in Lisbon, oftentimes in art work of the day, one can view them hubnubbing with European upper crusties, overseaing their family's business interest, including slave trading.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Oh forgot to add most of these empires had huge armies, those in the Savannah had quilted or chain mailed, when primitive fire arms was introduced, some adopted it others did not, so it's not like they were super badasses although many certainly were, it's just that they were evenly matched, with home court advantage,

Battle of Hastings 1066 A.D , Normans and Anglo Saxons fought each other on one of the most crowded battlefield in Europe pre modern times, had roughly 13000 troops a piece, 26000 thereabouts, the kings of Savannah could field 200,000 infantry plus 40,000 chainmail cavalry with pointy spears some looking like giant two pronged Turkey forks, his calvary alone would dwarf both combined armies.
The outcome while no one can say for sure ,but it be interesting for gamers to play out.

a reply to: peter vlar

Again you are coming here not with Archaeological or historical facts to support your bold statements that are clearly moved by partisan political agendas.

The political rivals of Sadat invented the myth that he was Sudanese, in not very different way that for 8 years the Tea party was accusing Obama of to be really Kenyan or Indonesia, or the opposition in Venezuela claims Nicolas Maduro is Colombian.

This last reply from your side is not only as false as the previous one, it is notoriously cynical since you insist in the lie that she would be Sudanese, you categorically assert she was indeed from that country.

It was not the mother of Amwar Sadat who was born in Sudan it was his maternal grandfather, in the border region with Egypt at the shore of the Nile, now, the other three of his grand parents were all born in Egypt.

We are not here talking about statements formulated discretely as mere hypotheses to be tested or discussed, you came with sarcasm to spread a misinformation about one of the most famous Egyptians of the XX century.

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: bloodymarvelous



they were not necessarily converts, but for sure They knew of Mali and Mali knew of them, as they knew of at least one of their kings, Mansa Musa , European cartographers had him seated on a throne holding a golden nugget for over two hundred yrs, as he was the world's richest individual ever!!.

According to Forbes magazine, Bill Gates would look broke in comparison, his cities may have been distant geographically but they were certainly no fringe backwater,

Mansa Musa doesn't help this situation much with respect to the stereotype of Sub Sahara African people never having contributed anything to the sciences.

All that money, and no memorable scientific achievements?

It's certainly not because he couldn't afford it.

It was an international hub, from the rest of the world's POV, much of Europe at the time was the lonely girl standing in the corner of the party.

Either that, or the stuck up girl who thinks she's too good for everybody else.

Matter of fact most of Africa and it's kingdoms did not fall until the late 19th early 20 centuries, the Ethiopians sent deplomictic missions a number of times to the Vatican during the 12th century, Christian Nubia took part in the Crusades.

Ethiopian people have a substantial admixture of European and/or Middle Eastern DNA, so they also don't help the discussion much.

To defeat the stereotype, we need a culture with more or less pure Sub Sahara ancestry to do something that demonstrates academic achievement.

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Oh forgot to add most of these empires had huge armies, those in the Savannah had quilted or chain mailed, when primitive fire arms was introduced, some adopted it others did not, so it's not like they were super badasses although many certainly were, it's just that they were evenly matched, with home court advantage,

Battle of Hastings 1066 A.D , Normans and Anglo Saxons fought each other on one of the most crowded battlefield in Europe pre modern times, had roughly 13000 troops a piece, 26000 thereabouts, the kings of Savannah could field 200,000 infantry plus 40,000 chainmail cavalry with pointy spears some looking like giant two pronged Turkey forks, his calvary alone would dwarf both combined armies.
The outcome while no one can say for sure ,but it be interesting for gamers to play out.

Having huge armies isn't necessarily a sign of academic prowess either.

Remember that the title of this thread is "Death to white supremacy". Ancient Egypt gets respect in European culture because of its demonstration's of knowledge. At a minimum they demonstrated they had enough knowledge of engineering required to build the Pyramids, Obelisks, and various temples. But also for having a writing system so much earlier than the Greeks.

The Mongols, on the other hand, are mostly treated as savages in European history books, despite having conquered most of the known world during the lifetime of Ghengis Khan.

Having a big army just means you have a big population. It doesn't prove it is a smart population. (Especially if you get your arse handed to you on the battlefield by a technologically superior enemy, despite all of your numbers.)