Paypal are ruining my opportunities for buying American goods online from UK location

Here is a letter I wrote to an American music developer and retailer company I wanted to be a customer of, but can not on principle of them only offering Paypal as a payment method. Anything between $ and £ is used as a means for Paypal to EXTORT extra cash out of the customer by offering their own ridiculous exchange rate EVEN BEFORE we can make the purchase. I wrote a full thread about it, but this thread is attempting to explain to you why Paypal are messing up America's chances of trading with the EU and UK:

"Hi,

I wanted to buy an item of software from you; Fission. You only give one option for payment which is Paypal. This in itself is not moral in a free market. You must provide options of payment.

Paypal only give less than $1.29 to every £1. That means I am being penalized and having to pay a conversion rate even before I buy one of your products. They would be charging me almost £5 extra on the price anyone in America has to pay. This is grossly unfair.

If I was allowed to pay with my bank's debit card through Visa I would be given the proper exchange rate and would not be penalized like this.

Until you are able to offer British and European payments for your software I will be unable to purchase on principle of being financially abused by Paypal if I want to buy anything from America.

This is happening time and time again when I try to buy anything from America. It is really BAD for the American economy because you are stopping people trading with you by imposing this stuff on them. Why should a customer be penalized online like this?

It is wrong and I will not buy anything outside of the UK using Paypal unless it is advertised in £ Sterling because they are taking extra from people when they already charge you for using them as a web payment facility. It is disgusting and I will not participate.

I like your gear, but only the hardware is currently an option for me if I do not wish to be PENALIZED financially as a customer. Is there really no way you can make your software available to customers in the UK and Europe without them having to pay MORE than Americans and those who can pay in $?

Until that time I am unfortunately not able to be a customer. I will be be very upset indeed if I lose this special offer price for the Fission because of this disgusting extortion by Paypal. I will be that upset at you, too, for not giving us an option and a fair price here in Europe and will not be wanting to ever buy anything from you again if I see how little you care about and consider European and UK custom.

yours sincerely,

XXXXXXX

If I was allowed to pay with my bank's debit card through Visa I would be given the proper exchange rate and would not be penalized like this.

You can't do this? I've got my Mastercard linked to my PP and I can buy anywhere around the world with the proper exchange rate. The States, UK, Korea, China, France, Belgium, Oz, and more if I think about it.

a reply to: intrepid


If you look at the exchange rate when you make the purchase, then compare it to what the banks' exchange rates are you will see that Paypal are giving you a really bad exchange rate.

If you buy with your card directly Visa do not make you pay the exchange rate because they are already operating on a world scale. Paypal are, too, but they are somehow making their own exchange rate up, which I think anyone offering an exchange rate can do in terms of commission.

Look hard at the rates next to the box telling you how much you are to pay. Here is what I mean (screen shot not practical as too much personal info:


"PayPal Checkout
$69.00 USD

Review your payment

Hi Michael.
Pay with

XXXXXX BANK PLC XXXXXX
£53.53 GBP
PayPal rate: £1.00 GBP = $1.289011471 USD"

Today's official exchange rate is $1.33 to £1. Visa would just charge me $69 and that would come out of my account at £1.33 if I had the option to pay by debit card.

That is for a product that in America can be bought online for $69

The official exchange rate would make $69 into £51.74. That is by today's exchange rate. My bank would not charge me for exchanging into $. Visa don't need to exchange, BUT PAYPAL DO.

On this transaction I am having to pay £1.79 which is $2.39to Paypal for the transaction on top of what the American company have to pay them to use them for selling goods.

The same is happening to EVERYONE who does this. Americans buying European or any other nationality's goods sold in a currency other than $ have to pay it, too. it is Paypal's little perk, obviously, and I bet they are making millions out of it (in anyone's currency, lol). It is a cheap and dirty trick.

It is the new way perhaps? Visa obviously is too fair for them now? Are Visa's fees less than Paypal's for a seller? I do not know as I have never sold through Visa as it is too elitist for informal sellers.

On principle and to save my purse I will not take part in extortion like that. I would rather have nothing than be ripped off so underhandedly like this.

a reply to: Revolution9

This in itself is not moral in a free market.

Actually, it is (if you believe there is morality involved in the “free market”)...

Because the “free market” determines that companies can charge whatever they like for their product in any way they see fit.


Though the idea that the “free market” has any “moral” duty is contrary to the fact that Capitalism is all about the bottom line (£€$).
To think that making as much money as possible has moral implications is delusional.

That’s not to suggest that making money is immoral, either...
Personally I think the question of morality in money making is highly irrelevant.
Unless you’re a pimp or something.


Fact of the matter is, they have no moral obligation whatsoever to offer you another option besides PayPal.

a reply to: Revolution9

I stay away from PayPal. Twice now they have screwed me out of money when selling items on eBay. Both times the buyer claimed their account was hacked and the purchase was unauthorized. I provided proof of shipment, and despite their supposed "seller protection", they ruled in favor of the account owner. They have stolen roughly $500 from me. They are criminals.

a reply to: Revolution9

Adopt the US dollar and a lot of your problems go away./sarc

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: Revolution9

This in itself is not moral in a free market.

Actually, it is (if you believe there is morality involved in the “free market”)...

Because the “free market” determines that companies can charge whatever they like for their product in any way they see fit.


Though the idea that the “free market” has any “moral” duty is contrary to the fact that Capitalism is all about the bottom line (£€$).
To think that making as much money as possible has moral implications is delusional.

That’s not to suggest that making money is immoral, either...
Personally I think the question of morality in money making is highly irrelevant.
Unless you’re a pimp or something.


Fact of the matter is, they have no moral obligation whatsoever to offer you another option besides PayPal.

Do you think that is okay? It means American companies will not get my business and I will have to stick to buying only things that are sold in £. Is that good for the U.S economy and jobs is it? Is that good for any country? No, it is DAMAGING international trade where Visa did not and only encouraged it. Paypal are barbarians in comparison and it will show in the finish.

If I was a trader who wanted to have customers outside the confines of my own currency I would be really pissed about this. I am a customer and having my choices shrunk like this makes me very pissed, too.

Well, they can all behave how they want then in YOUR idea of a free market. It is not my idea and not the idea of many others. They may not find that they have much custom though once everybody wakes up to the fact that they are being so exploited. I am very observant. Others will catch on, too. That is why I write about my experiences.

originally posted by: scojak
a reply to: Revolution9

I stay away from PayPal. Twice now they have screwed me out of money when selling items on eBay. Both times the buyer claimed their account was hacked and the purchase was unauthorized. I provided proof of shipment, and despite their supposed "seller protection", they ruled in favor of the account owner. They have stolen roughly $500 from me. They are criminals.

I agree. They are criminals.

a reply to: Revolution9

YOUR idea of a free market.

See, this is a problem...

It’s not my idea of the “free market”...
It is the ethos of the words themselves.

Free, comes from freedom...
& companies having the freedom to do as they do in terms of how much they charge and what options of payment they decide to offer is the point behind my original post.

When the time comes to dictating how businesses operate in terms of those two things, it is no longer a “free market” ideal.
I’m not saying you are trying to “dictate” or want Government intervention to “dictate” their decisions, I believe you’ve made have a suggestion to them.
Not even an unreasonable one.

But all I’m saying is I see no moral implications at all.

Do you think that is okay?

Well that’s a different question entirely...
& “Okay” is subjective really, isn’t it.

I see it both ways, firstly in terms of what I’ve already said, and also from your (the customers) position.
I think both are “okay”.

If enough people like yourself make noise, and the company hears the calls and understands that they’re losing customers and money, they may decide to change their operations.

I wasn’t disagreeing with your overall point, I understand it and your frustration...
My only point was the moral argument doesn’t really apply.

a reply to: Revolution9

Sorry, but "free market" means people are free to charge what they want and the consumer is free to choose if they purchase. I've never bothered to try, but can you pay with a UK visa overseas?

a reply to: scojak

If you read paypal's t&c's it states clearly that proof of postage is NOT proof of delivery, which is why I always send recorded delivery or international signed for.

As for using a debit card, you have no security of purchase if you don't use paypal and your purchase goes missing or there is a problem with it.

Twice this last month I've had 2 buyers try and claim item not received even though they'd clearly signed for it (and were obviously a bit stupid to think I wouldn't know this). Their claims were dismissed when I provided proof of delivery

I've used paypal for over 10yrs without issue, just abide by the rules for your own safety and security.

Please do not use Paypal. Like another poster said, they are a terrible company. My business has stopped using them entirely. After they placed a hold on $615.00 of ours from customers for services rendered I immediately stopped all payment taking via PayPal. There is no recourse for it and I have no sympathy for whatever Hacker decides to have fun with their systems when/if it does happen.

F*** PayPal.

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

Obviously proof of shipment is not proof of delivery, however...

From PayPal's Seller Protection page

For "Unauthorized Payments" complaints: The payment must be marked "eligible" on the Transaction Details Page.

You must provide Proof of Delivery or Proof of Shipment as described below.

..."or" being the operative word.

Proof of Shipment is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

The date the item was shipped.

The recipient's address, showing at least the city and state, or city and country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent). The address information on your shipping receipt must match the address on the Transaction Details page.

I did all that, yet they still ruled against me. And yes, the item was eligible. They don't abide by their terms and conditions despite my complete fulfillment of their requirements. Like I said, they are criminals.