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Officials DIDN'T know about missing submarine until press reports
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So, I have been following this story for a couple days now and I'm starting this thread because it's been almost 10 days now and no one is
talking about on ATS.
Also, there are a few things which I things it's weird in this story.
I'll resume for those who are not aware of the situation.
The weird thing is, the Navy didn't released the information about the explosion until now. They gave false hopes to the families about the crew state.
I don't know if it's routine, but does Nasa always help in situations likes this?
I have read in a brazilian news site, that the operation was classified as "Secret of State". Maybe that's why the Navy kept the secret? I don't know the protocols.
- The fact that the mission was a secret of state
- The Ministry of Defence and the Government was only told about the missing submarine after 48 hours (after the press was aware)
- Navy only released the info about the explosion after almost a week
- The delay on the search and rescue mission because of the distrust of the Navy Commander on the help of Chile, Brazil and Britain navy.
Makes me wonder if there's something else on this.
Any thoughts ATS?
Express
Folha
CBS
Also, there are a few things which I things it's weird in this story.
I'll resume for those who are not aware of the situation.
The ARA San Juan and its crew of 44 have been missing since last Wednesday (Nov, 15) after vanishing about 300 miles from Argentina's southern coast.
Since then over a dozen countries, including the US and Russia, have sent assistance to locate the submarine. (also, NASA helped on searches.)
Yesterday, the Argentine Navy confirmed that an event consistent with an explosion was detected in the south Atlantic last week, dashing any hopes of the submarine's survival.
The information about the possible explosion came up on the very same day from the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Organization, an international body that runs a global network of listening posts designed to check for secret atomic blasts.
The weird thing is, the Navy didn't released the information about the explosion until now. They gave false hopes to the families about the crew state.
I don't know if it's routine, but does Nasa always help in situations likes this?
A huge scale investigation is being launched into the disappearance, and the President plans to remove the head of the Navy, Marcelo Srur. He has hit out at Mr Srur after his distrust of the help offered by Chile, Brazil and Britain delayed the search and rescue mission.
Argetinian news site Infobae reports Defence Minister Aguad demanded that Major Srur present a comprehensive report on the circumstances that led to the disappearance of ARA San Juan.
He wants to know if the ship had its original German batteries, why it wasn’t accompanied by corvette warships, if it was immediately ordered to return to Buenos Aires, and why the fact the submarine had lost contact with Naval control was kept from him for 48 hours.
I have read in a brazilian news site, that the operation was classified as "Secret of State". Maybe that's why the Navy kept the secret? I don't know the protocols.
The San Juan was traditionally escorted by two ‘coveted’ warships when carrying out illegal fishing controls, and relatives have questioned why the submarine wasn't accompanied on this journey.
Mr Aguad led a crisis committee in the ministry and met with President Mauricio Macri, who yesterday spoke on the phone with his counterpart Vladimir Putin.
As part of that dialogue, Aguad agreed with Russian Defense Minister Serguei Shoigu to coordinate the dispatch of a Russian vessel with specialised rescue equipment to help in the search for the missing submarine.
- The fact that the mission was a secret of state
- The Ministry of Defence and the Government was only told about the missing submarine after 48 hours (after the press was aware)
- Navy only released the info about the explosion after almost a week
- The delay on the search and rescue mission because of the distrust of the Navy Commander on the help of Chile, Brazil and Britain navy.
Makes me wonder if there's something else on this.
Any thoughts ATS?
Express
Folha
CBS
a reply to: vinifalou
All I can say about this, is that if there was a way to save the crew of that vessel, a time sensitive way to save that vessel, a window which is now closed, then someone needs demoting down to urinal inspector over this. Some secrets are worth risking lives for, but only in extremis, and Argentina, militarily speaking, does not matter to anyone enough to have secrets worth spending a submarine crews life on. It never has, and likely as not never will, unless there is a major shift in world power over the next little while.
The sort of hubris, ego and stupidity that must have been abroad, to keep vital details of the vessels location, situation and the urgency of the rescue effort secret, given Argentina's relative lack of geopolitical importance, is staggering, and I am disgusted that the crew have been imperiled in this fashion. You could understand caginess from Russia in a similar incident, or from Britain or America, maybe from China, but Argentina?
Its ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous. A nation which has nothing to do with anything of the slightest importance outside its own borders, whose secrets are irrelevant to most anyone living anywhere else in the world, being so reluctant to inform potential rescuers of the location of a submarine full of its dedicated service persons, is absolutely unforgivable.
All I can say about this, is that if there was a way to save the crew of that vessel, a time sensitive way to save that vessel, a window which is now closed, then someone needs demoting down to urinal inspector over this. Some secrets are worth risking lives for, but only in extremis, and Argentina, militarily speaking, does not matter to anyone enough to have secrets worth spending a submarine crews life on. It never has, and likely as not never will, unless there is a major shift in world power over the next little while.
The sort of hubris, ego and stupidity that must have been abroad, to keep vital details of the vessels location, situation and the urgency of the rescue effort secret, given Argentina's relative lack of geopolitical importance, is staggering, and I am disgusted that the crew have been imperiled in this fashion. You could understand caginess from Russia in a similar incident, or from Britain or America, maybe from China, but Argentina?
Its ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous. A nation which has nothing to do with anything of the slightest importance outside its own borders, whose secrets are irrelevant to most anyone living anywhere else in the world, being so reluctant to inform potential rescuers of the location of a submarine full of its dedicated service persons, is absolutely unforgivable.
a reply to: vinifalou
just my opinion but :
a submarine conducting :
WTF ?????????????????????
yes i know that the " robot translation " used on the origional spanish text has done a shoddy job
but a submarine - conducting operations to prevent // monitor illegal fishing - yup WTF ???????????????
ETA :
and further - why did it " need " an escort of corvettes ???????????????????
submarines are mostly designed to operate solo
even making allowances for horrendous " lost in translation " errors
the tail still makes little sense
just my opinion but :
a submarine conducting :
illegal fishing controls,
WTF ?????????????????????
yes i know that the " robot translation " used on the origional spanish text has done a shoddy job
but a submarine - conducting operations to prevent // monitor illegal fishing - yup WTF ???????????????
ETA :
and further - why did it " need " an escort of corvettes ???????????????????
submarines are mostly designed to operate solo
even making allowances for horrendous " lost in translation " errors
the tail still makes little sense
edit on 24-11-2017 by ignorant_ape because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ignorant_ape
Heres the thing, if that was its intended mission, why was it going without escort, as per the normal run of operations. There is more to this than is being said, even now, which leads me to ask the following:
What did Argentina's naval command, THINK was so important, that they had to send a submarine without over top cover, to investigate it? As previously mentioned, Argentina has no secrets worth keeping, so what is it that led this mission to be conducted so unusually, and kept information pertaining to the whereabouts of the vessel hush hush, until this late stage?
Heres the thing, if that was its intended mission, why was it going without escort, as per the normal run of operations. There is more to this than is being said, even now, which leads me to ask the following:
What did Argentina's naval command, THINK was so important, that they had to send a submarine without over top cover, to investigate it? As previously mentioned, Argentina has no secrets worth keeping, so what is it that led this mission to be conducted so unusually, and kept information pertaining to the whereabouts of the vessel hush hush, until this late stage?
originally posted by: vinifalou
I don't know if it's routine, but does Nasa always help in situations likes this?
The NASA P-3 Flying Laboratory was already based in Argentina. Just simple courtesy to assist in the search.
NASA’s DC-8 is usually the aircraft flown from South America to Antarctica for the IceBridge mission’s annual research flights over the continent. But this year, the DC-8 was booked for a different mission, so NASA’s P-3 filled in. Since late October, the P-3 crew and instrument operators have been making flights out of Ushuaia, Argentina, to map Antarctica’s ice.
earthobservatory.nasa.gov...
a reply to: vinifalou
Lots of updates here.
They didn't know about the explosion until Monday. The guys at the nonproliferation agency went back and did a detailed examination of their hydrophone data from last week and found where the explosion occurred. They notified our government, who notified the Argentine government on Monday.
Lots of updates here.
They didn't know about the explosion until Monday. The guys at the nonproliferation agency went back and did a detailed examination of their hydrophone data from last week and found where the explosion occurred. They notified our government, who notified the Argentine government on Monday.
edit on 11/24/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)
a reply to: TrueBrit
The area the explosion occurred, and presumably where they went down has places that drop to 10,000 feet. If that's where they went down, and they were in one of those areas, the "explosion" was probably the hull crushing as they passed crush depth.
The area the explosion occurred, and presumably where they went down has places that drop to 10,000 feet. If that's where they went down, and they were in one of those areas, the "explosion" was probably the hull crushing as they passed crush depth.
a reply to: ignorant_ape
In theory, the sub can use sonar that the corvettes don't have, or that's better than they have, to locate fishing boats where they aren't supposed to be, then the corvettes actually go after them based on the location given by the sub.
In theory, the sub can use sonar that the corvettes don't have, or that's better than they have, to locate fishing boats where they aren't supposed to be, then the corvettes actually go after them based on the location given by the sub.
a reply to: TrueBrit
just perhaps there are various political and governmental operations going on in that part of the world that are unknown and maybe even unimportant to distant observers and commentators.
just perhaps there are various political and governmental operations going on in that part of the world that are unknown and maybe even unimportant to distant observers and commentators.
edit on 24-11-2017 by Aliensun because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Aliensun
And if they are unimportant to those who might find out about them, they are not worth keeping secret.
Which brings us back to the main question here... Why was this submarine not being escorted by its usual companions, in the shape of a couple of corvettes?
And if they are unimportant to those who might find out about them, they are not worth keeping secret.
Which brings us back to the main question here... Why was this submarine not being escorted by its usual companions, in the shape of a couple of corvettes?
a reply to: TrueBrit
Unless, the rumours of Nazi bases & even lebensraum on vast steppes of the altiplano aren't at all wrong? What if the Falklands conflict was about something more than a few islands? What if we were keeping tabs of the Nazis since way back when, from a convenient series of islands geographically proximal to the de facto enemy territory?
and Argentina, militarily speaking, does not matter to anyone enough to have secrets worth spending a submarine crews life on. It never has, and likely as not never will, unless there is a major shift in world power over the next little while.
Unless, the rumours of Nazi bases & even lebensraum on vast steppes of the altiplano aren't at all wrong? What if the Falklands conflict was about something more than a few islands? What if we were keeping tabs of the Nazis since way back when, from a convenient series of islands geographically proximal to the de facto enemy territory?
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
How about a submarine just out of a major overhaul, having a propulsion failure with a storm on the surface, unable to maintain depth control and suffering a catastrophic hull breach below crush depth?
Sorry no North Koreans, no Nazis, just an equipment failure.
My sympathies to the crew's families.
How about a submarine just out of a major overhaul, having a propulsion failure with a storm on the surface, unable to maintain depth control and suffering a catastrophic hull breach below crush depth?
Sorry no North Koreans, no Nazis, just an equipment failure.
My sympathies to the crew's families.
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
Well, the invasion of the Falklands was what caused the conflict.
Our keeping tabs or not is largely immaterial to the causes for that fight, because it was instigated by the Argentine forces, not a desire on our part to look under their collective skirt, to see what Argentina had hiding in its garters!
Well, the invasion of the Falklands was what caused the conflict.
Our keeping tabs or not is largely immaterial to the causes for that fight, because it was instigated by the Argentine forces, not a desire on our part to look under their collective skirt, to see what Argentina had hiding in its garters!
a reply to: JIMC5499
It came out yesterday (article is in the update thread I linked back on like page one) that they radioed that the snorkel leaked and water dripped onto the forward battery, causing either a fire, or just a large cloud of smoke. They said they were running on aft batteries but everyone was ok and they were under power at the time.
It came out yesterday (article is in the update thread I linked back on like page one) that they radioed that the snorkel leaked and water dripped onto the forward battery, causing either a fire, or just a large cloud of smoke. They said they were running on aft batteries but everyone was ok and they were under power at the time.
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