FCC plan would give Internet providers power to choose the sites customers see and use

a reply to: CriticalStinker

My daughter is writing a paper on it for her high school Problems with American Government class (yes that's what it's called).

She is furious. So much indignant outrage. I am so proud.

originally posted by: Jiggly
its insane that people here are against NN... without it.. you might not even be able to access ATS anymore.. b/c your isp would block it...

and that is the problem

They might FINALLY get the hint when the Filtered Reality 2x4 cracks their skulls by blocking ATS, Breitbart, Alex Jones, et al. Sometimes people just have to learn through being swindled. Good luck reversing the swindle though, and I'll be laughing "told ya so! told ya so!" while they cry in a corner over it.

I can't wait for a return to dial up speeds

originally posted by: TacticalStats
Well I'm here and asking. The courts are trying to force the internet to be a utility. The FCC controls radio and speech is governed there in a way that I don't agree with. If NN goes back through making it a utility wouldn't the same speech rules apply to the internet then that the radio has now?

No, different rules.

Let me try explaining NN with another metaphor. Consider data the utility. Assuming the technology existed, do you think it would be fair, or even good for the marketplace if the electric company could charge electricity going to a computer at 50 cents/kwh, to a tv at 5 cents/kwh , to a coffee maker at 27 cents/kwh, or to a water kettle at 1 cent/kwh in order to shape consumer behavior? What if they then had modifiers on those rates and dell computers were charged at half the rate while keurig coffee pots paid double that appliance rate?

That's what removing Net Neutrality is asking for. It's saying that the ISP gets to dictate what businesses and brands are successful rather than the general population.

That's why it should be a utility, you get the product... water, gas, electricity, data, etc... and you consume it. The water company doesn't get to charge you different rates for gallons used in a shower vs toilet.

a reply to: Aazadan

I'm just curious, what has happened with mobile data? Have they moved to charge for each byte used or have they moved to unlimited? I know you guys don't trust the market because you've been indoctrinated not to, but it works and there are thousands of examples to every one of a market failure.

On something as big as the internet, the consumers have plenty of control.

a reply to: Aazadan

It's saying that the ISP gets to dictate what businesses and brands are successful rather than the general population.

Ever heard of the FTC? Yeah, what you've described is already illegal and the FTC has the power to fix it.

a reply to: Jiggly

you might not even be able to access ATS anymore.. b/c your isp would block it...

Nope, they can't. That's covered by so many FTC regs it's ridiculous. From anti-competitive statutes to deceptive practices.

The most likely scenario that could result in a censored web would be big companies offering free internet but only access to their sites or extremely throttled access to other sites (remember net zero?). But you'll always be able to pay for fast and uncensored internet because there's an insatiable appetite for it.

a reply to: redhorse

Hopefully she actually does research and can give you a proper education on the matter.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
But you'll always be able to pay for fast and uncensored internet because there's an insatiable appetite for it.

Isn't that what im doing right now

a reply to: TheMZA

Yep. and that won't change.

ETA: if anything, it will probably get cheaper.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: redhorse

Hopefully she actually does research and can give you a proper education on the matter.

Oh please. Why don't you give me a "proper education" on the subject. Oh please.

*waits with baited breath*

a reply to: redhorse

Here this might help on the ISP side of things,

By Karl Denninger, Market-ticker.org

In Depth On The Math; Net Neutrality

Net Neutrality does not address that problem because it can't; it instead imposes a forced-subsidy model on those who don't want a given service and makes the monopoly problem worse.

The problem is bandwidth hogs like Netflix, Amazon, Hulu and many others are using ISP's systems heavily but not paying one dime to do so.

The article gives good examples of ISP side of the issue.

The point really is valid that streaming service providers and customers are causing higher ISP costs to non-subscribers of streaming video services. The additional bandwidth build out required at the ISP which is not recovered from those services nor customers directly is subsidized by everyone else.

The streaming services are getting a free ride.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

I'm just curious, what has happened with mobile data? Have they moved to charge for each byte used or have they moved to unlimited? I know you guys don't trust the market because you've been indoctrinated not to, but it works and there are thousands of examples to every one of a market failure.

On something as big as the internet, the consumers have plenty of control.

Mobile has moved to zero rating certain providers, which is a violation of net neutrality. It also dynamically alters speeds based on the type of content you're watching.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

It's saying that the ISP gets to dictate what businesses and brands are successful rather than the general population.

Ever heard of the FTC? Yeah, what you've described is already illegal and the FTC has the power to fix it.

No it's not. There are a couple of incredibly narrow FTC regulations that can be completely sidestepped by the ISP saying they put "quality standards" in their contracts with companies.

originally posted by: TheMZA
I can't wait for a return to dial up speeds

We got Cable, DSL, and fiber without Net Neutrality. Demand required it, not government.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

I'm just curious, what has happened with mobile data? Have they moved to charge for each byte used or have they moved to unlimited? I know you guys don't trust the market because you've been indoctrinated not to, but it works and there are thousands of examples to every one of a market failure.

On something as big as the internet, the consumers have plenty of control.

Mobile has moved to zero rating certain providers, which is a violation of net neutrality. It also dynamically alters speeds based on the type of content you're watching.

So you're saying they did something despite NN?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I must be reading your post wrong... but are you saying that you agree with paying more for services that you already have access to? Sure you PAY for that service, but not to have access to it.

This will NOT happen. There will be innovation to counter this. Not far off TOR catering to the average user.

If people have to pay for an internet plan that included Youtube or be stuck with a plan that only let them use google to search things, and limit their internet to a handful of services, it will create ways for people to bypass these restrictions.

... wakes up. Goes to ATS: "This website is restricted. To access it, please call 1800-1300-998 and sign up for the Alternative Pack for only $99 a month."

originally posted by: Lurker1
I have a question for those who understand this issue -

Does this mean we're going to lose unlimited browsing on mobile again?

Please go easy on me. I just got home. I'm beat and I haven't read the thread yet.

Personally, I don't think there should be many restrictions on or control of the internet. It is information and education. You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous fees to use the library.

From my understanding, the internet is like a library at the moment.

Net neutrality provides access to every book in the library.

These intentions being put forward, are akin to saying "You can only read old books. If you want to read new books or specific books on a subject, here is the price plan."

originally posted by: DupontDeux

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: DupontDeux

The only other thing I could compare it to is electricity. Everyone has a far different need for the amount and diversity on how it's consumed. That's why you pay for electricity and pay based off of consumption.

Imagine if you had to pay extra (on top of consumption) for owning a fridge, or air conditioner.

Wait, you want to go back to paying for each megabyte consumed rather than paying flat..?

I do not remember that fondly!

They'll just take away 80% of your access, give you 20% of what you have now, charge you a flat fee the same as you pay now, and when you can't access a website because it's not on your plan, you can pay more.

Good stuff.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: dug88

Next time I am at a restaurant, I'm gonna complain so hard if they don't have Borden's milk on hand... I'm so sick of these high assed business owners making choices of what to provide me for the agreed upon prices and then demanding I actually stick to their menu or, the horror, take my business elsewhere.

You're happy to lose things you have, just because specific places never had things you wanted.

I'm failing to even comprehend what is going on in the minds of those for this dire situation.