Christ and Capitalism

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: LABTECH767




In heaven you are free, the work you shall do shall be done out of love not greed - you shall never be thirst, never hungry, never have to be tired though you may sleep if you choose to, never sick because your maker will heal you, never unclothed because he cloth's you, in heaven God is the one making the investment he just want's to see his children grow up to be more like him and NOT like the devil.

The Devil
Come worship me and all these thing's I shall give unto you
The Capitalist
OK
The Christian
NO

Christians are not exempt from greed or any other quality you don't like.

Since you don't actually know any of this and certainly can't prove any of it, statements like this can easily be dismissed as poetic wishfullness. It does no one any good to pretend like heaven is a real place.

How dare you, you are denying the very word of CHRIST and dare to take the name of Wood Carver, how many puppets have you made eh!.

Were do I start.

As you treat the least of these so too do you treat me.

Your judge shall be God but you are so utterly wrong, when was the last time you ACTUALLY read the new testament, Not some masonic CRAP but the actual new testament.

Or would you rather go back to worshiping your Lucifer and claiming that he is Jesus when in fact he is NOT Jesus and is NOT the GATU at all, the devil built and designed within the universe but in rebellion to God, how many time's do we have to have this argument when one of you misguided people does not like the truth.

REMEMBER this, The Stone which the Builder's Rejected - the Builders being the Mason's and Architect's - has become the Capstone - the ruler.

The whole point of the church is that it is not made from perfect stone's but from those the Devil claim's would be rejected, the repentant the fragmented and the weak made strong in Christ, the Codex Sinaticus - the one that was found in a hidden scriptorium after a wall collapsed in an earthquake was not talking about these stone's but those that do not reach out to help there brothers so stand apart from the tower of the church, those stones' that stand apart are the one's which she shall smash and throw into the burning pool's mentioned in that codex, you think you know, that you are enlightened by the lies which blind you, that you are clever enough to deny the truth.

So did Satan so I would advise you to turn back NOW.

Yes we are not exempt, we are imperfect but through the blood of Christ we are made perfect, he will grant us a new hart, a new spirit a new body and robe us in white.

Have you never noticed how your temple's, lodges and chapter houses are made like mockery's' of synagogues, what part of that passage about those that claim to be Jew's but are not did you not get.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

causing no harm is not what the bible teaches.

The 1st commandment is to love God and the second is to cause no harm to anyone. You really need to brush up on your Christian theology .

is this not the post that started our dialogue? I responded to this msg about the 1rst commandment saying that the commandments were taken from the code of hammurabi, and that you were adding words to the commandments. Right? Then you quoted luke to back you up, stating that you never meant the actual commandments. So lets just get this back on track. The jewish laws as well as the old testament commandments and by proxy, the new testament, all derive from babylonian (and other eastern) culture(s) These words in the commandments are credited to Hammurabi, the King of Babylon at the time. So they are not inspired by the jewish god or the christian god. They were picked out from earlier cultures, which goes a very long way to discredit and actually 100% debunk claims of modern christians that these laws were given to Moses by Yahweh on the mountain. They were literally written in stone in 1708b.c. In Babylon.

originally posted by: LABTECH767

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: LABTECH767




In heaven you are free, the work you shall do shall be done out of love not greed - you shall never be thirst, never hungry, never have to be tired though you may sleep if you choose to, never sick because your maker will heal you, never unclothed because he cloth's you, in heaven God is the one making the investment he just want's to see his children grow up to be more like him and NOT like the devil.

The Devil
Come worship me and all these thing's I shall give unto you
The Capitalist
OK
The Christian
NO

Christians are not exempt from greed or any other quality you don't like.

Since you don't actually know any of this and certainly can't prove any of it, statements like this can easily be dismissed as poetic wishfullness. It does no one any good to pretend like heaven is a real place.

How dare you, you are denying the very word of CHRIST and dare to take the name of Wood Carver, how many puppets have you made eh!.

Were do I start.

As you treat the least of these so too do you treat me.

Your judge shall be God but you are so utterly wrong, when was the last time you ACTUALLY read the new testament, Not some masonic CRAP but the actual new testament.

Or would you rather go back to worshiping your Lucifer and claiming that he is Jesus when in fact he is NOT Jesus and is NOT the GATU at all, the devil built and designed within the universe but in rebellion to God, how many time's do we have to have this argument when one of you misguided people does not like the truth.

REMEMBER this, The Stone which the Builder's Rejected - the Builders being the Mason's and Architect's - has become the Capstone - the ruler.

The whole point of the church is that it is not made from perfect stone's but from those the Devil claim's would be rejected, the repentant the fragmented and the weak made strong in Christ, the Codex Sinaticus - the one that was found in a hidden scriptorium after a wall collapsed in an earthquake was not talking about these stone's but those that do not reach out to help there brothers so stand apart from the tower of the church, those stones' that stand apart are the one's which she shall smash and throw into the burning pool's mentioned in that codex, you think you know, that you are enlightened by the lies which blind you, that you are clever enough to deny the truth.

So did Satan so I would advise you to turn back NOW.

Yes we are not exempt, we are imperfect but through the blood of Christ we are made perfect, he will grant us a new hart, a new spirit a new body and robe us in white.

Have you never noticed how your temple's, lodges and chapter houses are made like mockery's' of synagogues, what part of that passage about those that claim to be Jew's but are not did you not get.

I don't worship anything and i don't have a masonic bible. I was a mason for a time, but i think that # was stupid too. I don't believe in any gods or any devils or spirits, so perhaps you should complain about things that i actually do? And also god isn't real and the bible is a collection of stories stolen from other cultures as i have shown without a doubt in this thread.


Christianity and Islam are the religions of the Masons.

a reply to: Revolution9

I believe Christ was not against prosperity, but that He also wanted us to be generous with what we had in giving to those who were in need.

We should not be so consumed with our prosperity that it becomes the end all for us, more important than God, even. We should always have our eyes fixed on Heaven, not on acquiring even more.

Consider, if true penury was the requirement for Heaven, no one would be able to care for anyone else. We would none of us have anything, not even to care for ourselves or our families. Christ always provided for his followers (loaves, fishes), and he charged a husband to be as Christ to his wife which implies a certain amount of prosperity is needed there.

Christ also taught in terms of the prosperous and generous too.

We cannot be in a position to give anything unless we first have - both in the material and in spirit.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You had said that those 2 rules came from hammurabi . I was saying that the Christianity teaches to do no harm . I mentioned the 1st of importance and the second like the first to show it taught to do no harm . I then asked you to produce the text attributing the 1st to God from the hammurabi which you claimed it did and told me to brush up on my history . The text you provided mentions nothing about God so strike one on the two rules already being established .

Now we could get into how the second commandment in Christianity goes further then the hammurabi text does in as much as causing no harm to others . But I wanted you to answer to my question about the text speaking of God seeing you claimed it did . Does the text refer to God ?

originally posted by: Revolution9
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
Who are you saying that to?

No one in particular.

Please be more specific. Christ never said that. He said don't cast your pearls before swine. He said a wise person builds their house on the rock and not on sand. He never said what you are saying. He did say about seeds, but that was about the Sower.

I wasn't trying to quote Christ, just the Bible. I did misquote though, it now seems. The story I was thinking about when I made that post was indeed the parable of the sower.

Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:5-8

We are not the Sower. We are the seeds who get scattered, some growing as thorns and others as useful wheat; some on ground where they can't grow and where they get choked by the weeds. Those were His metaphor uses.

You are right. It seems in the amount of time its been since I read the Bible and in particular that parable, memories of the details escaped me.

I do apologize for what I now see as an irrelevant post. At the time I was a bit (and then some) inebriated, to be quite honest. It seems when I read ("read") the OP in that state I took something completely different away, totally missing the point entirely. Seems like a few words jumped out of me and I filled in the blanks..?

At any rate... I was thinking of us as sowers, the seeds like investments, and the rocks like unwise places to lose or squander your money.

Those who criticize must have a better solution. If they do not then they are advocating devolution through spite. They will reap what they sow and have poorer and harder lives. I don't want that kind of life. I respect and honour good people among the powerful and wealthy. They certainly are vital. I don't want to end up as a peasant just because of my own jealousy and spite; my failure to appreciate that society requires diversity even economically and financially. It was tried the other way: They called it communism. It was a total failure and destroyed millions of peoples lives and opportunities for a LONG TIME.

I'll stick with Christ's Wisdom, both literally and metaphorically. Nothing wiser has revealed itself and nothing ever will.

I have not been a Christian for some time now. But I am thankful for the influence Christ (real or imagined) had on me. Even if I can't recall all the lessons properly.

a reply to: Revolution9

The parable about the talents in Matthew 25 has nothing to do with money. There's not only one parable in Matthew 25, but three of them given to help explain. In three parables Jesus gives us three pictures of faith and unbelief. Faith is looking forward to the Lord’s return (the parable of the ten virgins), it’s receiving the "wealth" of his GRACE (the parable of the talents), and investing it by sharing our God given gifts with the lives of those who need it (the parable of the sheep and goats) in order to expand the Kingdom of God.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Revolution9

The parable about the talents in Matthew 25 has nothing to do with money. There's not only one parable in Matthew 25, but three of them given to help explain. In three parables Jesus gives us three pictures of faith and unbelief. Faith is looking forward to the Lord’s return (the parable of the ten virgins), it’s receiving the "wealth" of his GRACE (the parable of the talents), and investing it by sharing our God given gifts with the lives of those who need it (the parable of the sheep and goats) in order to expand the Kingdom of God.

There are two layers to it.

It is at the deeper level about faith, but Christ also taught in a context his followers would understand. If none of his followers were ever to be prosperous in a material sense, then they would not understand the deeper meaning, either.

a reply to: ketsuko

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Can you rephrase?

originally posted by: Revolution9
In the UK we have a high brow radio station called "Radio 4" that the BBC broadcasts. This station is a sacred institution in Britain. On Sunday mornings they have a broadcast traditional Church service with choir, hymns, prayers, Reverend and all. It is actually very well done. They broadcast it from different Churches, too, and they are real time services.

The sermon today quoted Christ's parable:

Matthew 25:14-30

Parable of the Three Servants

14 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a long trip. He called together his servants and entrusted his money to them while he was gone. 15 He gave five bags of silver[a] to one, two bags of silver to another, and one bag of silver to the last—dividing it in proportion to their abilities. He then left on his trip. 16 “The servant who received the five bags of silver began to invest the money and earned five more. 17 The servant with two bags of silver also went to work and earned two more. 18 But the servant who received the one bag of silver dug a hole in the ground and hid the master’s money. 19 “After a long time their master returned from his trip and called them to give an account of how they had used his money. 20 The servant to whom he had entrusted the five bags of silver came forward with five more and said, ‘Master, you gave me five bags of silver to invest, and I have earned five more.’ 21 “The master was full of praise. ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’

22 “The servant who had received the two bags of silver came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two bags of silver to invest, and I have earned two more.’ 23 “The master said, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’ 24 “Then the servant with the one bag of silver came and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a harsh man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. 25 I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth. Look, here is your money back.’ 26 “But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, 27 why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’ 28 “Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. 29 To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. 30 Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

This gives a clear indication that Christ was not anti Capitalism. Venture Capitalism is what has made the West rich so that even us minions have hot water and heat and even people on welfare can still have computers and hobbies. Venture capitalism has achieved this. Of course it has been the people who were grouped under this banner (from worker to executive), all of them, who have achieved this, a roll on effect through the ages, one generation passing on the progress to the other.

That all makes sense to me. However, Christ did say this, too:

Matthew 22:15-22:

Paying the Imperial Tax to Caesar

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?” 18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?” 21 “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” 22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Society depends upon the proper payment of taxes to a government so it can raise its standards and civilization. Modern societies require serious FUNDING. Greedy feudal behavior will send us back to a violent dark age. It will not be nice for any of us; both worker and executive will not have the comfort they do have in a properly funded, monitored society that is equally as invested in with our TAXES as it is with our investment port folios. Without the tax there can be no safety, security or civility for any of us.

The duty of Capitalism and capitalists is to PAY TAX. Christ said this explicitly because He knew what will bring us the best option for a well resourced, fair, secure and comfortable society for us all. The worker will have education, health, housing and opportunities, too, alongside those who can enjoy this because of wealth. Wealth is more than numbers and currency. A rich person who carries their wealth well is a very vital and important resource of civilization for us all. Those who do not are destroyers of EVERYTHING.

Off shore tax havens and avoiding tax is the enemy of civility and society. Avoiding tax is the enemy of true Capitalism. It is the enemy of progress.

No he did not

The first story has nothing to do with christ, the second story is about people using the coin of capitalism, but dont want to pay taxes - they cant have both!

The point is the coin - it is Caesar´s coin - just like our money, is owned by the banks. If we traited with something else, something of real value, the point would be different...

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

You had said that those 2 rules came from hammurabi . I was saying that the Christianity teaches to do no harm . I mentioned the 1st of importance and the second like the first to show it taught to do no harm . I then asked you to produce the text attributing the 1st to God from the hammurabi which you claimed it did and told me to brush up on my history . The text you provided mentions nothing about God so strike one on the two rules already being established .

Now we could get into how the second commandment in Christianity goes further then the hammurabi text does in as much as causing no harm to others . But I wanted you to answer to my question about the text speaking of God seeing you claimed it did . Does the text refer to God ?

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: ketsuko

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me. Can you rephrase?

There are two layers. Jesus's parables are never straight. To someone without the eyes to see and the ears to hear, the story of the ten virgins is just that: a simple tale of ten women waiting for the groom to come and some of them don't have oil. Kind of a dumb story, really, that would leave someone wondering what the point is. But ... to someone who knows better, you see the symbolism and the second lesson:

This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

Matthew 13: 13-15

However, if there were never to be people among the faithful with prosperity, then some of the parables that teach using prosperity as the first meaning would make no sense to us.

You cannot be generous and giving with what you do not first have either materially or in spirit. If I have nothing of my own, I have nothing to give. If I have no spirit, I cannot give of it or increase it. If I have never had anything of my own to give as a gift or as an offering or as charity, then I have never known or understood what that feels like to know or understand that aspect of spirituality.

You have to teach from a position that people understand to draw your comparison and make it valid.

a reply to: ketsuko

And don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that Jesus wanted us to be rich misers living only for wealth and material gain. That's not it at all. He constantly warned against the pitfalls of it.

But at the same time, I don't think He was telling us we had to live as ascetic monks, either.

If you prosper, OK, just be aware that you should be as generous with what you have as if it could all be taken away tomorrow ... because it can be. Job found that out. If others have need, and many do, then you should use what you have for their sake as you can.

a reply to: ketsuko

I disagree. I don't think the parables in Matthew 25 are any different than the ones in Matthew 13. Let's take a look at what they all have in common.

In my opinion, they all revolve around Matthew 13:23...

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

In reality, it's all about bearing fruit for the KINGDOM OF GOD, which is mentioned at the beginning of every one of these parables. Bearing fruit doesn't have anything to do with fruit or money, but the rewards that come with sharing God and the Gospel of the Kingdom to advance people towards the Kingdom of God will be rewarded, and in Matthew 25, those parables appear to link their ability to advance the kingdom with the level of responsibility that they will hold in the Millennial kingdom when Jesus returns.

At one time, the Pharisees were given everything they needed to advance the Kingdom of God, but instead, they chose to abuse their positions and responsibilities (as well as the people), led the people astray, and will be rejected from the Kingdom of God.

a reply to: Revolution9

The sermon today quoted Christ's parable:

Matthew 25:14-30

The key word for me is *parable*:

par·a·ble ˈperəb(ə)l/

noun:

a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels. synonyms: allegory, moral story/tale, fable, exemplum "the parable of the prodigal son"

Personally speaking — thru conditioning and empirically weighing things out in my life — I lean greatly towards a Gnostic understanding of the Bible. I don't interpret the above story of the master and his three servants *literally* the way you have. However, despite my personal views — I do respect your literal interpretation. Therefore, I won't inject my personal understanding of the above parable.

However, based on my own business past: I disagree with much of your philosophy surrounding economics and how it affects the dynamics of society.

The duty of Capitalism and capitalists is to PAY TAX.

The *duty* of capitalism and capitalist is to make $$$. And lots of it. Period.

Off shore tax havens and avoiding tax is the enemy of civility and society. Avoiding tax is the enemy of true Capitalism. It is the enemy of progress

There are many more crucial things that greatly harm society; is the enemy of progress; and affect civility more than avoiding taxes...

Btw, do you work for the IRS or something...?

This gives a clear indication that Christ was not anti Capitalism

What was that parable about turning over tables in the market again?

IMO, this painting by the artist Banksy best illustrates what "Christ and Capitalism" is truly all about. I might make it my X-mas ATS avatar.

a reply to: Deetermined

On both levels, the parables illustrate people who do the right thing, one level is earthly and the other is spiritual.

In order to reach the Kingdom, you need to understand both levels and do right on both counts as best you can.

The seed that falls in poor ground are those who hear the word, understand and take joy in it ... until faced with adversity for its sake. Then they fall by the wayside shriveling up.

The seed that falls among thorns loses its way to world. These are the ones who fall to temptations like wealth preferring them to doing right by the word.

The last group hear it all and take it to heart.

Understand that prosperity is not bad, but it is temptation to keep what you earn. Resist the temptation and remain generous with it, and you are fine. If I have more than I need and others need and I give, isn't that fruit of the spirit? Charity? Or is the charity tainted because it came from someone who prospered?

a reply to: ketsuko

If I have more than I need and others need and I give, isn't that fruit of the spirit?

Not necessarily. There are plenty of lost people who are do-gooders, but it won't get them into the Kingdom of God. That's why the parable also says that those who have little (faith) will have what little they do have taken away from them and they won't be entering the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 25:29

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

a reply to: Deetermined

*sigh*

That's because you decided to skip right over what I said.

The last group hear it all and take it heart. They understand both levels.

You cannot have faith without works and works without faith is empty.

But nothing I've said above mandates a level of material anything that is acceptable in God's eyes. It's about actions.

The rich young man who went away from Christ failed the test because he was unwilling to give, not because he was rich. His wealth meant more to him in the end than Christ did. Understand that there were wealthy men among Christ's disciples that Christ did not ask to give everything up. Why? Because He knew they would if He did. He knew already He was uppermost in their hearts.

Later on the tax collector did not give up all he had and yet he was still saved. Why? Certainly, he was still a wealthy man.

a reply to: ketsuko

Later on the tax collector did not give up all he had and yet he was still saved. Why? Certainly, he was still a wealthy man.

*Sigh*

While you can't have faith without works, that's not the main theme of all of these parables.

While I'm sure Jesus commended Zacchaeus for offering up half of his wealth to the poor, that's not the reason that Jesus saved him that day. Jesus saved him because Zacchaeus "received him joyfully" (Luke 19:6), meaning he had faith and belief that Jesus was who he said he was.

When you go on to Luke, chapter 20, Jesus goes on to say give everything that belongs to Caesar to Caesar (money) right after he tells them a story about people wanting to take over the LAND that belonged to God's Son and his people. The parable in that story also tells how the "tenants" or squatters will eventually be killed to make room for those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and from which he will reign.

All of these parables have more to do with Jesus explaining who will enter the kingdom of God by faith because they are faithful and obedient to Jesus, not because of how much money they earned or used to help others.

While this may not be the intent of what you were trying to say, there's much more meaning to all of these parables that don't have anything to do with money, and very little to do with works. These parables are more about being obedient through faith in Jesus.

a reply to: Deetermined

And I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I am telling you they are to be understand on both levels, not just one to the exclusion of the other.

One meaning is veiled and only to be understood by those with faith, true, but you won't even have a chance to get that message unless you understand the surface meaning too.