Could you pull the trigger?

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

its all meat to me. souls gone by then.

I believe that is what happens when you detach yourself from humanity.

a reply to: CynConcepts>>> Of course civilian will respond differently than a professional who is trained to deal with the same situation. That's why I do think its unfair that a civilian will get scrutinized and investigated heavily over the use of deadly force while a police officer will have legal assistance and a department and district attorneys defending him. You panic and empty your gun into an attacker and its over use of force, they do it, despite being trained not to panic, and its justified and part of the job. Why wasn't the reporter given a working taser? That's supposed to be the first deterrent.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

its all meat to me. souls gone by then.

I believe that is what happens when you detach yourself from humanity.

well when your spirit is over one lifespan that tends to happen. realist perfected.

Did anyone else notice that the scenario with the little girl was even more staged than the other scenarios?

It appeared she was watching some badly acted TV show and deciding whether or not to shoot at the screen. Of course the makers of the TV show can force you into a scenario where you have to shoot a child. It's fiction.

Why is the second officer so far away? Why does the first officer put up his hands like a victim? Why doesn't the little girl fall over when she fires the first shot? It's TV, that's why.

I can invent, and film, a scenario where shooting a police officer in self defense looks like the only choice. What does this prove? Nothing.

The propaganda department of some police force put a reporter through a propaganda course about how hard it is to decide who to shoot.

The answer to the scenario is don't let a little girl get the drop on you with a rifle. The second officer should be keeping an eye on her while the first one is talking to the driver.

Here's another training video with media and a BLM leader I really enjoy:

originally posted by: JBurns
This video depicts a reporter who was invited to train with Coral Springs Police Department in Florida. The event was a series of staged force on force encounters, in order to give her insight into the difficult choices LEOs are routinely called upon to make. Throughout the scenarios, she learned several valuable lessons, including the fear LEOs have to face when they conduct stops. When the subject is not compliant or actively resisting, it adds an entirely new level of difficulty to the encounter, often forcing LEOs to make split seconds choices.

The final scenario involves a father and daughter who are stopped for some traffic violation. Two officers are present. While one officer speaks to the father outside the vehicle, the young daughter steps out holding a long gun. The second officer (the reporter, standing near their unit) then sees the little girl shoot the first officer, and is presented with an unimaginable choice.

All scenarios are entirely hypothetical, and were created specifically to showcase the range of emotional responses LEOs have even during so-called "routine" stops.

Of course this doesn't justify illegal activity by LEOs, in any situation. Nor does it excuse abusive behavior. It does, however, provide some insight into the frightening and fast paced environment they work in.

Do you think you'd react like this reporter in a similar scenario? I should remind you that she is fully aware these are fictional scenarios yet still has instinctual responses to the events. Just some food for thought

Sadly, yes... but would likely never be in the situation that LEOs find themselves in routinely. I hope I can live my entire life without having to kill another human being.

For civilians, in a situation where there are no innocents... a distinct option is to evade and/or deescalate.

The whole "Hands up don't shoot" and Black Lives Matter protests essentially have caused a massive double digit spike in urban crime in the last 2 years. Folks with very little allegiance to civility in the urban core have been emboldened to confront cops... of often in ways that could lead to the required application of lethal force.

Rather than lose their jobs, or go to prison... they are backing away from high risk encounters simultaneously dealing with elevated risk. Consequently, the very places that depend on a police presence to help keep a lid on open crime are being avoided by cops who would much rather go home to their families alive, than enforce the law, and deal with a hostile crowd.

Bad situation for everybody all the way around.

Thanks SJW and BLM for helping to create more victims of crimes in urban areas.

< s m h >

a reply to: PocketRevolution

Of course it is staged, this is part of a training video.

Why is the second officer so far away?

There are a number of reasons the second officer could have walked back to the vehicle. My assumption is that he's either running a license plate or an operator license. A lot of areas also have pretty crappy radio reception, and the boxes in vehicles transmit at a higher power than handhelds. He could have also walked back to write a citation and got out when he heard the commotion.

Why does the first officer put up his hands like a victim?

You don't try to draw on a drawn gun, that is a certain way to get shot. Action is quicker than reaction. Instead, you should wait for the opportunity to seize the initiative and gain control of the situation. Until you can do that, drawing a weapon on someone when they have the drop in you is not usually going to end well.

Second reason would be the shock of the situation. Even though we all know its possible, no one expects a young child to grab a long gun and challenge a LEO

Why doesn't the little girl fall over when she fires the first shot?

Because that is a myth you see on TV. 10 year olds can handle shotguns, including 12 ga. shotguns. Unless you have the worst stance ever and are totally off balance, shooting a shotgun isn't a problem. Shooting a weapon can not knock the shooter down any more than it can knock the recipient of the gunfire down/off their feet. If someone falls down, they are either 1) in shock from blood loss, 2) dead from CNS destruction or 3) chose to lay down from fear or pain.

It's TV, that's why.

It is an invented scenario. However, the conditions you described accurately reflect misconceptions parroted by TV. LEOs aren't always up close & personal on a stop, and a lot of things are easier/safer to do in your vehicle. LEOs can't/won't always immediately draw their weapon, especially when taken by total surprise - anyone with defensive shooting knowledge knows that is a death sentence. Tactical compliance coupled with seizing the initiative when a good chance presents itself is the only way to handle someone that has the drop on you, not a wild-west speed draw. And the part about knocking them over shows you've never fired a shotgun (or rifle). Recoil impulse will not knock you over. Nor will the hits knock the target over.

The propaganda department of some police force put a reporter through a propaganda course about how hard it is to decide who to shoot.

They put the reporter through the course to demonstrate how difficult choices have to be made by LEOs in a matter of seconds. That even the most innocent act can appear hostile, especially with furtive movements, low lighting and objects like wallets/cell phones/pagers/etc.

a reply to: randyvs

You've hit the nail on the head. All training should include an element of responding to the unexpected. If you're on a training day & get told "Today we'll be running through a number of scenarios in which you will deal with potentially lethal traffic stops", then You are preconditioned to be ready to make super-sapper adrenaline-filled decisions.

If, however, you spend five days training according to an elaborately scripted 'boredom central' routine in Humdrum, Minneapolis, dealing with all manner of low level sh#t, only to find on the afternoon of the second day you deal with an armed robbery/home invasion & kidnap rolled into one; and then on the morning of day four you're doing your third traffic stop between bagel bites & end up with a little girl jumping out with a rifle? THAT is how you know your mind is on form for what it takes to be a cop in America. Oh, and incidentally, the morning of day 5 you need to give a 'safety first' talk to a class of kindergarten kids. On the wall is a picture of the unicorn character which was on the shirt of the girl from the fatal traffic stop the day before.....

Perhaps one in three states would maintain a former ghost town as a Truman Show immersive training environment, with truck stops & filling stations, corner cafes & diners, hardware shops, etc (not all buildings would need live actors, some could be total mock-ups not otherwise involved in the proceedings) full of live actors who behave in the way any unscripted human town would appear - then each of those three states could cycle officers into & out of the various training simulations which the town is capable of.

Clever script writers & training providers could easily come up with dozens of simulations, and by careful rota systems no LEO would need do the same training more than once every three years. With psychologists & counsellors on hand for debriefs, officers would readily be able to deal with the unexpected emotions & effects which the training has. It would enable training staff & senior officers to adequately prep a staff of LEOs across the states which is always walking that Tao moment of alert readiness, and always has the capacity to make rational judgements with emotional & social outcomes held in a zen-like state of calm acceptance - capable of getting the job done in a 'compassionate but effective & realistic' manner.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I am in awe of your reply.

For all those who claimed a scenario involving a murderous little girl was far fetched, I offer you the following:

www.foxnews.com...

Police in Louisville, Ky., said an 11-year-old girl who drove a truck into a family’s home Friday told authorities she “wanted to kill people,” WDRB reported.

“(The officer) couldn’t believe what she said. He was like, ‘excuse me?’ And she said, ‘I wanted to kill people.’ And he said ‘I’m sorry, what did you say?’ And she said, ‘I wanted to kill people,’” Joshua Pate, the homeowner, told the station.

Do you still think this scenario is inappropriate?