I have an idea slash thought on time or space time and gravity... require opinions please

a reply to: Kashai

I do indeed realize that i have no real idea as to what we are discussing down to a distinct lack of factual evidence and empirical data to support our theoretical supposition.

But the fact of the matter is that you are also in the same boat as is the rest of humanity thus far.

Perspective is the key, but we simply will never know(for sure) until we get out there amongst the stars.

You need to understand that science and astronomical data can only tell us so much, from so long ago, pertaining to the universe in which we exist.

Like i said perspective is the key, but you cannot gain much from our very limited position in the universe, further understanding is an obvious requirement. We cannot measure or observe everything from our backyard.

Thoughts, or do you disagree?

a reply to: andy06shake

We can currently agree that if you do not understand differential calculus you need a better education.

Further understanding does imply a better education or would you disagree?

a reply to: Kashai

Humanity requires a better education.

Im 42, about as educated as I'm going to get by now short of what i manage to gleam myself.

That being said i do indeed possess an HND in Electronic and Electrical Engineering and a degree in Information and Media Technology. I'm not privy or aware as to your level of education, your arrogance, on the other hand, seems to be coming through in spades.

I understand my shortcomings, in the grand scheme of things "i know that i know nothing". You obviously cannot claim the same.

Not really applied differentiation to anything since my university days but i would suggest you look into the shortcomings regarding calculus and both Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry pertaining to our understanding of reality, of which there are many.

On that note im afraid i must bid you good evening, as its now 3:20am in my neck of the woods and i have 2 weans to be getting up for School in a few hours.

a reply to: andy06shake

I apologize if you took my position personally.

I merely intended that you take seriously something. This being relating personally to what is out their with respect to an education.

In regards to arrogance, a position would be to consider that an individual who did otherwise is arrogant enough to consider otherwise.


Thoughts?

A beam of light travelling through a great void in space experiences the same time dilation (slowdown) as a beam of light travelling through the solar system. Ergo no simulation dictated by 'processing power'.

Interesting concept thought!

a reply to: Kashai

Sleep would be my first thought just now Kashai.

There is a difference between being serious about a topic and actual understanding. Fact is we are only just beginning to understand the beginnings of what reality actually may be and/or how it relates to our own conscious interpretation of such.

In regards to me suggesting you are arrogant, well you did suggest i did not quite grasp differentiation. Granted it's behind me these days, and i probably never did quite understand the totality of the subject but alas it simply cannot explain all the little idiocracy of our universe as well as it should do.

Mathematics has its limitations one perfect example being that it cannot ever reveal what came before the current iteration of space-time. That being said math and science are indeed the only tools we have at our disposal hence the problem regarding some of the larger questions Humanity ponders these days.

Just keep an open mind and understand that where Humanity is concerned, regarding our universe, or our understanding of such, or even our place in said universe Humanity still resides in the stone age.

Good night.

a reply to: andy06shake

Would be more than happy to keep an open mind to anyone who actually has one.

I think you are on the right track about information -- but I think there is an underlying force that governs time, space, gravity -- that would be thermodynamics and, in particular, entropy.

FWIW, the units of information were well defined by a great genius of our time, Claude Shannon -- and the units (the dimension) associated with information is well established -- it is entropy. Yeah. Weird.

en.wikipedia.org...(information_theory)

So maybe it is helpful to think about that -- how space and time and information are all governed by thermodynamics in some way, or thermodynamics emerges (somehow) as the fundamental law of the universe from which everything else is derived.

It is just a thought.

Nice topic here, thanks for that!

a reply to: Kashai

Yawn.

Well short of talking to yourself in a mirror, i imagine you are apt to be on to plumbs there.

People must look hell of a small to you from up there on that great bing pedestal.

a reply to: andy06shake

no andy, i think the kickback is actually due to the general air of "I can produce an excuse for everything that says 'Humanity knows nothing, so why bother' "

Suggesting the HST data is useless in regard to observations of SagA* is obvious but not for the reasons you suggest.
What you suggest is just as short sighted as saying "Lets throw out and burn all of Einstein's books because, you know, its old and hey, we cant prove some of it so, lets just go back to looking at the stars and sacrificing goats to appease the gods"

So if you knew about the subject you would know that;
1) SagA* is obscured from view in the optical region of the EM spectrum due to dust in the galactic disk,
2) Dust can be 'looked through' using IR, thus the highest spacial resolution observations we have are made are within IR... using this region, the orbital movements of several stars have been mapped around the central object
3) The region has been observed extensively using the Chandra instrument, an instrument designed to map X-ray emissions... a key observing window for x-ray sources such as highly compact objects... we know of many black hole candidates from this instrument
4) For higher energy observations there is also the MAGIC array which can search for high energy emission from objects
5) The region has been observed for a long time using Radio telescopes

So i think the total length of time we have been looking at the region with our different eyes into the universe covers around 20 years now (maybe closer to 15) so once more, to basically say "We know nothing because of x problem" and then not discussing anything to do with that issue, like, suggesting you might know more about it than thousands of astronomers and physicists is in itself quite arrogant.

There is a hell of a lot we don't know about in this universe... this is true... but scientists strive to discover. SagA* is an interesting object as it is pretty dang hard to explain what it is, should it not be a black hole... especially when you consider the orbit of the S14 object is of significant interest...
inspirehep.net...
Which swings around in its orbit, the focus point of which is about 45AU away at its nearest point... all points at an object, of about 2-3 million solar mass, within less than 45AU, that is producing ZERO visible light.

im not a gambling man, but that kind of sounds like a black hole

a reply to: ErosA433

Not everything just things we require further study of and black holes are one of those things.

Same with galactic formation, we don't understand the totality of that nether.

I say its a black hole at the center also, it will still remain alleged through until we actually get out there.

Hubble has its shortcomings these days hence the replacement Webb we will put up there rather soon. She's certainly had her day and moment in the Sun though. Served her purpose with bells on.

Consider what we thought we knew about the universe only 100 years in the past to what we know today. Imagine what we may know in the next 100-1000 years? That's if we get off our arse and actually attempt to colonize at least low Earth orbit in any kind of meaningful manner.

Like i said its impossible to measure and understand everything form what amounts to our backyard.

a reply to: andy06shake

Actually, this kind of topics is more or less hobby of mine. My real claim to fame was to successfully interfere with a group of pedophiles and sex offenders who had taken over a state public assistance agency. I was authorized to do this, by the state in question due to my background wherein physics is a part.

These criminals had infiltrated the state agency upon the scale of countywide operations.

This was back in the middle to late 90"s when laws started to change concerning this type of behavior.

If I had believed your position had no merit whatsoever I would have told you. My response was intended, to inspire you to learn more about the topic. In so far as your comments to me, you apparently are not psychic so what exactly is motivating, you to make such assumptions about a person who you do not know?

In a manner of speaking, I fall into the category of a first responder and this was an extremely dangerous situation.

a reply to: Kashai

Anything or anyone that inhibits the activities of pedophile beasts has got to be doing something right, so kudos in that department.

Most peoples positions have merit, after all there are no wrong questions only incomplete answers.

Hence my ambivalence regarding what we think we know about the universe from our very limited perspective stuck near the bottom of our Suns gravity well.

All I'm suggesting is that we need to get out there into space and test, refine, and then reassess what we think we know about space-time as im sure that will change as our scientific and technological ability to measure and observe progress.

Stands to reason really.

a reply to: andy06shake

Yeah, it involves a department.

I am fascinated by science and its potential and consider that we are on track towards colonizing our solar system.

Like many, I consider that when in math we address the issue of infinities there could very well, be something wrong with the math.

a reply to: Kashai

If there is a universal language, chances are it will be mathematical by nature.

Don't know about being on track, kind of got off course since the likes of the Apollo program, too busy with our other socioeconomic dilemmas and religious indifference to address the real issues we face as a race really.

Mathematics is a work in progress, it will always require refinement. The golden ration is rather interesting pertaining to just about everything including the cosmos as is pi and the also the gravitational constant, most lightly intrinsically linked in ways we have as yet to fully understand.

Certainly, interesting times in which we live.

a reply to: andy06shake

in order to make such possible, we are going to have to deal with these problems to an extent the common will have to put aside many of the prejudices that exist, especially in relation to nation states. A motivation though is in context to the resources available with such a venture and it is taken seriously.

Our planet is not really designed to feed 7 billion people and in reality, our planet is subject to periodic extinction level events.

In an interesting way, that issue is a double-edged sword as if it were not for that, we would probably not exist.

I just find the opinion that we don't know something or cant say something with any kind of certainty unless we can walk up to an object and poke it with a stick, to be very very short sighted. No scientist ever says things with absolute certainty. Physics doesn't deal with absolutely, but rather probabilities.

Taking SagA* as the working example here with the above we know the following

1) Hot IR emitting objects orbit around a common point that has no IR counterpart.
-> with near 100% certainty These Hot IR objects are stars, it is theoretically difficult to imagine them to be anything other than stars based upon observations of not only the milky way, but other galaxies too.
2) There is an X-ray and Radio emitting object that does not correspond to a IR counterpart.
3) Based on application of Newtonian laws of motion, we can state that all objects around SagA* are orbiting a common object.
4) Based on Astrometrics (emission spectrum), we can estimate the mass of the objects that are observed in IR
->This is based upon some 100 years+ of observations of stars nearby, and binary pairs etc that allow very accurate estimation of stellar mass.
4a) Based on application of Newtonian laws of motion, the and Astrometrics we may estimate the mass of the unobserved object
-> This mass suggests a 2.5 million solar mass object, with an optical brightness that is less than all surrounding objects
5) One orbiting object passes extremely close to the proposed central object within 45AU
6) Simple examination of 5 and 4a suggest that the escape velocity within that range is relativistic... would need to examine stipulations of GR
7) Hot gas clouds have been observed to interact with the unknown object and produce large amounts of X-rays and radio emission


From this, and probably more to be honest, it is a good fit that a theoretical object, such as a blackhole, fits the bill to produce exactly the observed effects. It is thus good evidence once put together with other candidates for blackholes (that also exhibit the same behaviour) that Blackholes in a basic sense do exist. It may sound like circular logic, but the evidence is tricky to match up with an object to give the properties observed.

And saying "Oh but we just don't know" Is thus short sighted and unhelpful, suggesting it is impossible to infer anything at all ever...

a reply to: ErosA433


No problems with what you have accurately described I was referencing the calculations that relate to what makes a black hole tick.

a reply to: Kashai

And as far as I know, SagA really is a black hole.

a reply to: ErosA433

Short-sighted and unhelpful pretty much sums up Humanity really, let's just say we refuse to learn from our past historical transgressions and have a penchant for destruction unequaled by anything else in the animal kingdom.

And saying "Oh but we just don't know" is simply the truth regarding so many aspects of reality. Lack of knowledge is not unhelpful, as even the lack of something can be used to infer whats missing.

Consider for instance the discoveries pertaining to dark matter and energy. We found or surmised those theories through the lack of something, that something being enough mass to hold our universe together.

All im saying really is that there is only so much information we can discover whilst our eggs are all in the one basket.

Opinions are like bum holes, everybody has one and most of them stink.

I would not wish to exist in a world where people did not have different opinions as i don't imagine it would be a very interesting place.