Huge Corporate Profits- so Why do They Need a Tax Cut?

a reply to: Blaine91555

The genie is out of the bottle and the old world of small self sufficient communities is no more. The Earth could not support a population of this size living off the land like the tribes you mention. You think global business is messing up the environment, imagine 323 million people living off the land in the US. We would be in a perpetual cloud of wood smoke, the trees would be gone and the animal life would be no more. It's just no longer possible

How is the earth supporting that population now? We live off the land now, just not in a properly structured way. Instead of each of us growing tomatoes in our back yards or creating community gardens, we raze entire areas, use highly polluting equipment and such to grow it, pick it, pack it, ship it, pollute some more, send it to a warehouse, back up a truck, load a pallet of tomatoes, send it to 5 different grocery stores and 3 wholesalers in a few mile span, have consumers travel(and pollute some more) to go get 3 tomatoes(or 3 boxes) in a plastic bag, or Styrofoam container or cardboard container, go back home(or their xyz restaurant) and continue the horrendous cycle. How about educating people that if they look in their backyard, LITERALLY, they will find Food in their backyard. How about the teaching kids how to grow a tomato plant and some lettuce in a pot? How much would we reduce our ecological foot print all the while reducing the financial strain on society, and the stress created.

Take a walk in the woods or in a field for an hour...you could feed hundreds but we are educated that it is nasty, dirty and disgusting. Superfood is everywhere, we have forgotten knowledge acquired by past generations that would reduce

I am not saying abolish technology and burn down the forests as fire wood, how about tax rebates for using clean energy, how about tax rebates for people in cities encouraging community gardens, kitchens, composting etc?

Outside of all of that, you state

What you suggest might be a good thing for small populations, but like it or not we are inside a global economy serving seven and half billion people.

Oh really, i'm pretty sure the entirety of North America could survive without global economy if redesigned...as in we have all the natural resources we need...most of the world actually has everything they need around them. The ones that probably couldn't survive are countries that are ravaged by poverty already(partially thanks to capitalism...).

I'm sorry Blaine, we got you heated up early in this thread, now so am I (And I think this conversation has completely derailed from the initial subject to a certain degree)

originally posted by: CB328
I found this chart showing corporate profits for the last 70 years, and not surprisingly, corporate America has more money than at almost any point in HIstory. They are awash in money, so why would they possible need a tax cut at the cost of cutting government spending on public safety nets? The obvious reason is that Republicans wan't to destroy the middle and lower class. Normally the Republicans don't want to do anything to increase the deficit, but they are willing to make it shoot up by 1.5 trillion dollars so that millionaires can get much more money. If this tax cut is enacted America will become an Aristocracy and you can kiss your rights, freedoms, and standard of living goodbye because they will have all the money and power instead of just most of it.

fred.stlouisfed.org...

As a small businessman... I'll tell you very simply, why the corporate tax rate needs to be LOWER.

- Large corporations will often pay little or no taxes, regardless of the tax rate

- Small businesses employ most of the people, and pay the most relative taxes... and DON'T have money for an army of professionals to lower their tax burdens

- If they lower the corporate tax rate, and close some loopholes, it will have an almost immediate beneficial effect on the U.S. economy.

The U.S. has near the highest corporate tax rate on earth. Why would a successful company who manufactures products even bother staying in the U.S. when they can go overseas, sell overseas, and leave a huge portion of their profits overseas?

Most of us having this discussion about taxes, monetary policy, and real world economics are functionally illiterate about actual facts on these issues. We are smothered under a pile of political bullsh1t spewed by a partisan media, tat has no actual bearing on getting a wide angle view of policy and it's effect on the economy.

a reply to: dasman888

How would you feel about a graduated corporate tax which would be progressive rather than the regressive structure now used? Do you think such a structure could be made revenue neutral?

a reply to: dasman888

Between you and Blaine, I thank you for the clarity you have provided. I see why both of you are fighting for reducing the tax rates and totally support your point of view now that I understand it. I still believe the entire system is broken, and that regardless of the tax rate, the little man will not stand a chance...lowered tax rate = buys the little man a bit of time to try and break through and become profitable enough to survive.

a reply to: CB328they should only be eligible for these take cuts if they bring manufacturing part of there businesses and other jobs back to america. the way a lot of them have been making record profits is by outsourcing jobs to other countries where they could get away with slave labor wages and in some cases actual slaves.

It's not that hard to understand. All the large USA companies are leaving for other countries that have a lower tax rate. What's better, 0% or 20%? The current corporate profit rate has nothing to do with this proposed cut. It's to attract companies back to the US or keep them in the US in the first place.

originally posted by: CB328
The obvious reason is that Republicans wan't to destroy the middle and lower class...

LOL because Obama did so much for the middle class right? Obamacare nearly decimated the middle class with massive increases in premiums and deductibles...and as much as Obama "fixed the economy," I don't know of a single middle class family that feels better off now than they were before 2008. We are living paycheck to paycheck and barely scrapping by because of BOTH parties...the elites in charge want us poor and fighting each other.

a reply to: UndeadWarrior

Instead of each of us growing tomatoes in our back yards or creating community gardens, we raze entire areas, use highly polluting equipment and such to grow it, pick it, pack it, ship it, pollute some more, send it to a warehouse, back up a truck, load a pallet of tomatoes, send it to 5 different grocery stores and 3 wholesalers in a few mile span, have consumers travel(and pollute some more) to go get 3 tomatoes(or 3 boxes) in a plastic bag, or Styrofoam container or cardboard container, go back home(or their xyz restaurant) and continue the horrendous cycle. How about educating people that if they look in their backyard, LITERALLY, they will find Food in their backyard.

Your solution is a completely inefficient use of human time and land resources. And do you really expect anyone to eat the weeds out of their back yard? Do you eat the weeds out of your back yard?

This is the reality. Favor by favor, payback by payback it grows and it's grown so massive, those who authored it likely know only a small part of it or how to use it effectively. I have to pay and trust someone else to handle it for me and it does not need to be that way. Reality is a fair tax code could fit on a few pages.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
This is the reality. Favor by favor, payback by payback it grows and it's grown so massive, those who authored it likely know only a small part of it or how to use it effectively. I have to pay and trust someone else to handle it for me and it does not need to be that way. Reality is a fair tax code could fit on a few pages.

Isn't it interesting how the tax code grows as we add more and more tax cuts in the way of deductions?

a reply to: Dfairlite

Uh...yea I do. I pick plantain from by yard, dry it and make tea. I've picked dandelion leaves and put them in my salad and I also pick wild edible mushrooms (Let's say I got extremely paranoid first time I did it on my own even if I was convinced what I was eating was safe). I drink Chaga tea, and will also be exploring birch polypore more in depth. I also recently made pine needle tea for the first time...surprisingly tasty and loaded in vitamin C. Who told you it's inefficient, it's healthy, a great pass time and most of the things I've just mentioned are extremely quick to do. Oh...Yea I forgot I have this hidden wild garlic patch I go to every spring which I then put in water/vinegar mix so I can eat some nearly all year round!

Much more efficient to work full time and pay 1$ per tomato or so than growing my own tomatoes, cucumbers and lettuce in my backyard right?! Barely need to spend an hour a week looking after my garden once set up. Hmmmm...Let's do the math on efficiency. I start from seeds, transplant, transplant again into my garden, then I do some pruning and pull some weeds from the garden to ensure nutrients get to the plants I want them to. Hooked up a little gadget called a timer on my garden hose which waters in daily. My tomatoes taste 4x better than the grocery story tomato and I know that it wasn't sprayed, waxed and touched/picked by some underpaid stranger.

Do you know how to calculate efficiency, I do...it's what I do for a living and I realize that walking in the woods and picking wild edibles and weeds is healthy on multiple levels!

Does your city pay to plant and upkeep flowers in parks and on sides of roads/crosswalks? Would it be less efficient to put tomatoes and feed people for free?

On a side note, ask me the same question in a year...and the list I just provided will likely be longer!

a reply to: Blaine91555

That is astronomical! Seems like a broken and over complicated system built to screw the little guy.

a reply to: Dfairlite

I could also add that...For a period of time I was involved in a family business(as in, my families business) for importing, storing and sorting fruits and vegetables as wholesale. A few particular produce went through our warehouse in order to end up in any grocery store in Canada.

Build a flow chart of all the time and people involved in producing any food.
Farmers = Equipment = Parts = transformation = raw materials
Stores = transport = Distributors = transport = wholesaler = transport = producer/farmer
Warehouse/Wholesaler = more employees
Customers and Employees = Transport and more pollution!

Trucks, Cargo ships, Tractors, pollution, etc...

People don't realize that you have entire warehouses filled with underpaid employees filtering through produce on a daily basis before shipments go out because stuff rots. Guess what happens to that rotten produce...garbage and tax write off. We ordered some tomatoes from Florida once...by the time they arrived about 10-15% is rotten and goes to garbage. If you can't flip them, you have an exponential rate of loss.

We closed the business down really quickly for the same reasons Blaine has mentioned. We could not compete since all the bigger providers knew all the loopholes and had all the better contacts and contracts! We also found out that the business we initially bought had really good accountants that made lot's of cash money disappear, one of our "salesman" was secretly selling our produce to our competitor for cheaper than our cost(He got caught real quick luckily), but he was selling some of what we thought was "rotten" produce too!

The entire system is corrupt. Those who are "big", used a loop hole or did something illegal to get there....

As you may see...this topic is one I'm kind of passionate about...if anything, our food system is one of the most inefficient models that exist in our society, and our educational system isn't educating us otherwise. Luckily, foraging, gardening and perma-culture are becoming popular in recent years...mother nature will thank us for it some day.

a reply to: UndeadWarrior

You have two options. Either accept that you're not going to compete with a factory farm unless you make your business bigger.... or brand your goods as artisianal, organic, fair trade, free range, tomatos

a reply to: UndeadWarrior

Barely need to spend an hour a week looking after my garden once set up.

In a neighborhood of 100 homes that's 100 man hours per week. Somehow an aquaponics system that only requires about 100 man hours per year can feed that same 100 homes. That's 52x more efficient. That's how it's an ineffective use of human time. As for the waste of resources is it more or less efficient to have 50 small gardens on one acre (each requiring their own water source, piping, timer, etc) or one large garden on the acre? Oops. Pretty obvious why it's not an efficient use of land, now isn't it.

I'm not discouraging anyone from gardening. I have two large gardens in my back yard and grow fresh produce every summer. It's much better tasting for sure and no pesticides.

Does your city pay to plant and upkeep flowers in parks and on sides of roads/crosswalks? Would it be less efficient to put tomatoes and feed people for free?

So it's flowers or food? Tough world.

a reply to: UndeadWarrior

Trucks, Cargo ships, Tractors, pollution, etc...

I can't grow oranges or pineapple or kiwi or many other fruits/vegetables in my climate. So what's your solution?

We ordered some tomatoes from Florida once...by the time they arrived about 10-15% is rotten and goes to garbage. If you can't flip them, you have an exponential rate of loss.

My neighbor's fruit trees have a loss rate of about 99%. I watch the fruit rot on his lawn for all of august-sept-oct. 15% would be amazing.

If there's one thing capitalism does to a fault, it's efficiency.

a reply to: Dfairlite

100 man hours per year can feed 100 homes with an aquaponics system once you consider all the transport, tools, cost of the system and setup? If you can turn around feeding 100 homes with 100 man hours in TOTAL, please contact me! I want to get into business with you.

I do understand what you mean, and you need to realize I am not suggesting that it is more efficient to have a garden in every backyard. I am saying that we should encourage it. The rule of efficiency is less segmentation = increased occupancy = increased efficiency, however their is a point of diminishing returns and quality.

Take a 1 acre plot and stick it in the middle of a neighborhood, offer free produce to anyone who contributes financially or with time to a green house type of aquaponics system...and now we have reduced waste and transport, we are eating fresh, encouraging community, etc....and in the end, reducing the financial burden on the little man. You talk piping, timers and such...but what about large scale warehouses, trucking companies, cargo ships etc.

As for the flowers or food...it's a quick and easy fix that can alleviate financial burden on families.

I am not suggesting that we should be feeding ourselves solely on the basis of our own gardens...I am saying we have forgotten knowledge that food is all around us. North America is horrible with waste in its various forms. We consume 5x what our earth can theoretically reproduce, if the whole planet would live like north america, we would need 5 planet earths and we continue to tell ourselves that it is okay.
Overshoot day

It highlighted that one key component of reducing consumption is changing the way humans eat. According to GFN, food consumption makes up 26 per cent of the global footprint. Some key aspects to consider would be sustainable agriculture, eating less meat and reducing the amount of food waste.

All I am saying, their are better ways...we can not eliminate all international trade(kiwis, pinables, oranges, etc)...and actually...we have the technology to create interior climates to grow those if we wanted, but we won't because it's not good for capitalism and international trade. (I am also not sure we could truly do this "efficiently")

As for the "loss rate" of 99%...is that because of a lack of demand for it or is it because it is HIS tree on HIS property and no one else can access it? If he would offer it to anyone and everyone for free, would their be 99% waste? Is this a supply and demand issue or is this a capitalism issue? Put an apple tree in the middle of your neighborhood for anyone to access, do you think you will have those kinds of losses?

By the way, 15% is not the "loss rate" in our current system...it depends on the produce, shelf life, where it is grown, etc. Oranges can store for months with little loss, tomatoes not so much. We as consumers alone probably throw out at least 10-15%(I wonder if that stat actually exists) of our food via uneaten left overs, uneaten portions in our plates and stigmas(ex: dropped my x on the floor = instant garbage)

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: dasman888

How would you feel about a graduated corporate tax which would be progressive rather than the regressive structure now used? Do you think such a structure could be made revenue neutral?

Just more Marxist progressive tax schemes. You DO know that the Progressive tax structure is a communist plank do you not?

originally posted by: jjkenobi
It's not that hard to understand. All the large USA companies are leaving for other countries that have a lower tax rate. What's better, 0% or 20%? The current corporate profit rate has nothing to do with this proposed cut. It's to attract companies back to the US or keep them in the US in the first place.

And those companies don't generally employ many people in the countries they move to. They open up token offices to shelter their profits offshore.

They keep their retail jobs, corporate offices ect here in the USA -- but move what's needed to shelter their profits overseas, skirting any kind of social responsibility (as hey, corporations are people right?).

Funny that businesses are "people" now but don't seem to be beholden to similar types of social responsibilities as actual people. They're allowed to influence our politics and drive our economies, and demand our military protection overseas for their pipelines and investments ... but they're allowed to pay less and less in taxes.

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: dasman888

How would you feel about a graduated corporate tax which would be progressive rather than the regressive structure now used? Do you think such a structure could be made revenue neutral?

Just more Marxist progressive tax schemes. You DO know that the Progressive tax structure is a communist plank do you not?

So is the abolition of child labour. Does mean we should have 8 year olds in factories so not to be commies?