Texas Church Shooting : Thread

a reply to: alphabetaone

Even more scary, in my honest opinion to that is, who decides when those deciders are mentally ill? I mean they are equally as susceptible to the erred human mind as anyone else.

And that, my friend is the true conundrum.

Who governs society? Of course, members of society must govern... there is no species we know of that is more capable of governing (I avoid the use of the phrase 'intelligent enough to govern' because we're speaking of humans) than ourselves. As long as this dynamic exists, and there is of course no outlook for it to change within the foreseeable future, those governing will be as susceptible to the same human failings as those governed... and it is those very failings that lead to the horrors we are trying to avoid. We run the risk of institutionalizing these kind of horrific events rather than mitigating them.

Indeed, as has been stated, Kelley was legally unable to purchase a firearm, but because of the ineptitude of a member of the USAF, the system failed. The only thing that did not fail was another AR-style rifle that was used to stop the killing.

The MSN article doesn't surprise me in the least. I actually blame this type of propaganda for the rise in mass shootings. In my youth, every young boy knew what a gun was, what it did, how to use it, and when to use it. There were two firearms that hung in the hall during my formative years: a .22 rifle and a .410 shotgun. I did not touch them without permission, for to do so would mean I would lose the trust of my father and likely never touch them again. He did, however, talk to me about them and let me shoot them as I got older, first under direct supervision, and later by myself.

Three rules were to never be broken when handling a firearm of any kind... even my old Daisy BB gun:

• Always assume every weapon is loaded, even if you just unloaded it, until you check it yourself.
  
• Never point a weapon at anything you do not wish to kill.
  
• There are only two reasons to kill: self-defense and food. If you shoot something that wasn't attacking, you'd better be ready to eat it.

The difference I see today is that kids know nothing about guns except what they see in the movies and on the video games. Those are fake. Rambo screaming while he holds a M-60 pointed at the ceiling, spraying bullets from a belt clip wrapped around his arm looks awesome, but it just don't happen. An actual attempt would wind up with that belt tightening around his arm while he fell over from the force of the kick and probably killed himself with a random ricochet.

It looked tough I guess when the good guys on "Miami Vice" held their pistol sideways and pointed it in all different directions. When that show was popular, my new boss, who carried a 9mm, had this habit of unloading his gun and coming around the corner doing that to scare new hires. He tried it on me; I fell to one knee and had my cuff up and hand on the stock of a .38 snub I carried in an ankle holster before he realized what was happening. As soon as he saw it, he immediately dropped his gun and stepped back with his hands in the air.

People I know think that was the silliest thing they had ever seen... the rapid movements do not give time to aim, but draw attention to the fact you are brandishing a gun, while holding it sideways means you cannot aim accurately even if you needed to. Those sights are designed to allow for trajectory drop vertically, not side-to-side.

Video games... give me a break! They're about as unrealistic as you can get.

Instead of being taught about firearm reality by parents who understood guns and gun safety, kids are taught about firearms by the above. Too many parents are 'afraid of guns.' I cringe every time I hear that, because it means another family of victims in the future. Fear, again, is the true enemy.

On a side note, that's a nice Marlin! I fell in love with Marlin rifles when I got my bear gun (had a black bear who lived in the area I hunted in).

Nothing personal, but I'm a big bore fan at heart. This thing will top an oak tree. I have one box of ammo I loaded hot with full metal jacket, just in case I need to kill a car.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

This thing will top an oak tree.

Not sure about that, brother Red. I'd be inclined to run away from an oak tree that was attacking, or even moving towards, me...

Other than that minor difference of opinion... Spot on, my brother.

a reply to: diggindirt

The shooter fractured a toddler's skull in 2012. In my opinion that act, along with beating and choking his wife should have ended his participation in a civil society. He should have been locked up at that point and not ever let out again. These same mental health personnel who are supposed to be deciding who can function and who can't let him out.

I had to quote that much just because there is so much truth in it.

There are evil people in this world. Devin Kelley was one of them. The gun didn't kill anyone; the Air Force didn't kill anyone. The gun dealer didn't kill anyone. The gun manufacturer didn't kill anyone.

Devin Kelley killed people.

I am constantly amazed how shallow our justice system has become. It is my experience that judicial decisions are more often than not made before the trial begins, simply on the basis of how the defendant looks. But, that's for another thread.

Stephen Willeford was the answer to the system's mistakes because he practiced gun control---steady aim.

You're just chock full of truth today, aren't you?

I can't add anything to that but stars...

TheRedneck

a reply to: seagull

I'd be inclined to run away from an oak tree that was attacking, or even moving towards, me...

Actually, when I discovered that little fact I was hunting for food... there was a squirrel in the tree.

Was...

TheRedneck

a reply to: projectvxn

Seconded!

@Quadrivium, agree entirely. It is this notion of safety nets and what not. For their idealized system to work, not only do we need a huge government, but private citizens can't have firearms. Private ownership/carrying of weapons ensures personal and state sovereignty, which is opposite of this nanny-notion many of them profess.

My libertarian self feels that failure is part of life, and the potential to fail greatly is all that much more motivation to succeed. Sadly what we have now is the result of trophies for participation, everyone making the team and social nets that prevent total failure.

Unfortunately some people would rather give up sovereignty/liberty/freedom in exchange for the safety and guidance of their parental government.

a reply to: TheRedneck

is that lever gun chambered in 45-70 Govt? The guy from Demolition Ranch nicknamed his 45-70 "Thumper"

I have a marlin lever action in .357 magnum

a reply to: TheRedneck

LOL the Marlin 60 was simply to make a point, though it IS a nice gun, a fun gun like I said for plinking, rockchucks or out of control squirrels

Like you I'm a big bore fan as well, I have a couole other Marlins, what they call the Adirondack Guide Gun (or just guide gun) the ported .444 Lever action (which it seems you and I have similar tastes! If I'm not mistaken, that's also the .444), and the 45-70 govt version of the same rifle. They are beasts to fire if you're not prepared, are about as flat shooting as throwing a cinder block, but they have nice stopping power if a black or brown bear is threatening. Also the short barrels on them make em easy to carry around in brush.

But this isn't a firearms reminiscence topic (as much as I wish that's ALL it were) and yes, ignorance going forward, especially of firearms and relevant semantics with respect to them, will be paramount to any discussion or legislation designed to further limit our rights on them. The hyperbole that surrounds these tragedies does no one any good.

originally posted by: starviego
With 27 dead, you'd think some of the 20+ wounded would have been heavily wounded, and would by now have succumbed to their injuries in the hospitals. But the death toll is not rising. Just like the Mandalay Bay massacre, once the death/wounded toll is announced, it does not move. More evidence of fakery?

Just making sure I undsrstand what you are implying with your last statement.

Are you claiming no one died,no one was hurt or both?

a reply to: JBurns

No, mine is a .444 Marlin. Imagine a .44 Magnum (same bullets), then add another inch of shell full of powder.

It's the kind of gun you use both hands with.

TheRedneck

a reply to: alphabetaone

Actually, I think there is some topical value in a little side discussion. As I pointed out, the preponderance of illegal gun usage, as well as the push to restrict gun ownership, is founded in a lack of knowledge about firearms. When you or I see a firearm, we see a tool... when some it, they see a demonic monster. How each of us talks about guns is a direct reflection of how we see them. Hearing a conversation wherein the gun is a tool can serve to reduce the fear that surrounds the tool.

At least I hope so.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Hearing a conversation wherein the gun is a tool can serve to reduce the fear that surrounds the tool.

You're right there. even if no one admits a certain degree of ignorance on the subject, if they see an informed conversation on it perhaps that will help in understanding.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Are you sure two hands is enough for that cannon?

Very, very nice

a reply to: TheRedneck

My first gun was a Xmas gift from Mom . It was a 44 mag Marlin with a gold trigger . Great bush gun .

a reply to: JBurns

Yeah, long as you hold on tight. It's actually easier to hold than my 30-30 Thompson Center Contender.

THAT thing will knock your socks off!

My dream gun is a Mark V Classic .460 Weatherby Magnum. Elephant gun, if you don't mind it being a little overpowered for that.


TheRedneck

Here's a stunning interview with a resident of the small town who talked to the families involved:

www.thecommonsenseshow.com...
Vonda Smith from Sutherland Springs, Texas....
Vonda recounted two stories of where the crime scene was invaded and nobody was guarding the evidence so to speak. Most telling was the fact that many of the bodies never went to the morgue for an autopsy. ......
The vast majority of the family member of the victims, as of Wednesday evening have not been allowed to identify their fallen relatives.
Vonda related the story of one family that was dictated to by the FBI what kind of funeral they were going to have. According to Vonda, the FBI told one family how much of the body they would be permitted to view. Additionally, the family was told whether the casket would remain open or closed. ....
Vonda clearly stated that the FBI was throwing deliberate roadblocks into body identification by demanding that the family had to have both the social security card and the birth certificate of the victim. ....
Vonda recounted the eyewitness testimony of a nine year old child who survived the attack. The girl clearly and personally told Vonda that the assailant put a gun to his own head and shot himself.

If they can afford it, I would encourage the families to hire a private medical examiner to do their own autopsies.

People are getting crazier and crazier. Its very sad to see this happen.