WAR: New Allegations of US Torture

Originally posted by soficrow
Just to pull everything back on topic:

This thread is about new allegations of US torture.

Yes it is, but some people like to take a chance to bash the US govenrment anytime they can, so someone has to bring up some of the evidence to the contrary....and Marg is not the only one that likes to bash at the US, exagerating or ignoring evidence to the contrary of what she/he says......

[edit on 12-2-2005 by Muaddib]

You know it should be something to take seriously when The World Organization for Human Rights USA,

Provided by soficrow news link

Morton Sklar, the organization's executive director, said there were legal memoranda issued at the highest level in the U.S. Department of Justice and the U.S. Department of Defence "justifying and encouraging the use of torture as a military necessity in time of war."

I feel that somebody in our govenment is disregarding the turth and getting away with it.

He that fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster - Freidrich Nietzche

Just read a BBC link about religous torture used in the prison, disgraceful.

For those who keep saying Iraq was linked to AQ, I have a question. It is well known that the US and more than likely many other countries including EU countires had dealings, business and the like with Bin Laden and crew. Do these links make these countries sponsors of terrorism also?

Originally posted by Muaddib

Yes it is, but some people like to take a chance to bash the US government anytime they can, so someone has to bring up some of the evidence to the contrary....and Marg is not the only one that likes to bash at the US, exagerating or ignoring evidence to the contrary of what she/he says......

[edit on 12-2-2005 by Muaddib]

And I will do it until free speech is taken from us the citizens of this country, and for you I am going to give you a warning stop targeting my post and find something else to do.

You can not stop me from posting the same way I can not stop you.

And about your links they are the same you used in every thread that brings bush bad policies on, all from resources that are good for you alone.

I am starting to think that you are either an agent of bushy or have some sick fascination with him.

You are as now on my ignore list, I am tired of you. looks that you sole purpose is to tag my post and attack me.



[edit on 12-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by WisdomMaster
And whatever terrorism you have today in Iraq is called
resistence to fight an oppressing power or terrorist power
which is ourselves.

People ... TRY to understand. The terrorists in Iraq are NOT
freedom fighters or a 'resistence'. They are murdering IRAQIS.
BLowing up their business' and their economy. Just this week
the terrorists murdered Iraqi bakers and barbers along with
the civilians who were shopping. The terrorists are not fighting
America or an oppressing power and the American forces
are not a 'terrorist power'. Geeze people, TRY to understand
that the terrorists are NOT wanted by the Iraqi people because
the terrorists are fighting against freedom, against free elections,
they are murdering their own people and are an INSURGENT force
against the free and soverign nation of Iraq. Look up the word
INSURGENT in the dictionary.

Originally posted by soficrow
the US is free to attack any nation in the world that thinks or acts
differently than we do, or who we think might possibly maybe
sometime or somewhere down the road do something to bother us.
...Is that really a responsible argument? Is it really good foreign policy?

You can't possibly believe that is American policy ... to attack anyone
who bothers us or who thinks differently? YOU have no
reasonable argument here. That's beyond silly and you must know
it. If you don't ... then again ...

America has a right to defend itself without permission from anyone.
YES this preemptive strike policy is a very good policy to have. Otherwise
the Eurocentric UN would leave America flapping in the wind to die.

I'm going to leave you folks now. You can all wallow in your self made
puddle of anti-American gabbing. It's silly and unproductive ... and your
'arguements' just aren't there. Bu-bye now.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


America has a right to defend itself without permission from anyone.
YES this preemptive strike policy is a very good policy to have. Otherwise
the Eurocentric UN would leave America flapping in the wind to die.

IRAQ WAS NO THREAT TO US!!!!!!! Why cant people realize that? Saddam was an arse, but he was no threat to the US. What was he going to do? Launch some nuclear camels at us? Oh, I know, he was going to call us some names I get so tired of hearing this stupid excuse that is gobled up by every nitwit that supports this ignorant war.

I'm going to leave you folks now. You can all wallow in your self made
puddle of anti-American gabbing. It's silly and unproductive ... and your
'arguements' just aren't there. Bu-bye now.

Some people may not agree with your opinion, and you kmay not agree with others, but is it really necssary to attempt to berate those who dont agree with you? It seems that you and muadib are taking lessons from eachother on how to hate everybody that doesnt think the same way you do. You want to know why America is going down the tubes morally? Its because of unaccepting people like you who refuse to acknowledge that thier might be a better way than your own.

It's not anti American babbling but just finding the truth, in one way people is entitle to believe what they want, another is to see trough lies and deception.

Nobody can deny that the invasion of Iraq was not for the purpose we were drill on, by the media and by the administration.

People has died for this "war" people that had nothing to do with the agenda of the US administration, that bring hatred toward the us the people of these country.

Allegations of wrong doing, lies and abuse will not make things any better.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by soficrow

By your rationale, the US is free to attack any nation in the world that thinks or acts differently than we do, or who we think might possibly maybe
sometime or somewhere down the road do something to bother us.

...Is that really a responsible argument? Is it really good foreign policy?

You can't possibly believe that is American policy ... to attack anyone
who bothers us or who thinks differently?

YOU have no
reasonable argument here. That's beyond silly and you must know

it. If you don't ... then again ...

America has a right to defend itself without permission from anyone.
YES this preemptive strike policy is a very good policy to have.

Preemptive: marked by the seizing of the initative; initiated by oneself. Ahem, a preemptive strike policy means attacking before you are attacked.

... and your
'arguements' just aren't there. Bu-bye now.

My thoughts exactly.

Again, If we don't respect the law, then are we helping to destroy it? ...If we bypass laws or ignore them, then we are removing legal protections for ourselves too?

What would the world be like if we didn't have laws? ...Would we go back to "might equals right" where everyone is controlled by lords, landlords and evil kings? ...not to mention armies run by corrupt corporations and dastardly drug cartels? Where do we draw the lines then? How?


.

Originally posted by Kriz_4

For those who keep saying Iraq was linked to AQ, I have a question. It is well known that the US and more than likely many other countries including EU countires had dealings, business and the like with Bin Laden and crew. Do these links make these countries sponsors of terrorism also?

Saddam was offering to pay to any family of any suicide bomber who killed Jewish people, that includes Americans. Terrorists had a terrorist camp for them which was run by Iraqi military officials which were part of Al- Mukhabarat Intelligence. That first.

Second....the connection the US has with Osama Bin Laden and his crew, as you call them, was that we trained them to fight the Russians... Do you understand that? We trained them over 20 years ago to fight communism.... That's the only connection that I know we had with Osama....

BTW, all those people that still think and claim that Russia is our friend, the Russians themselves told us that Saddam was preparing to help out with some attacks in the US.. I think the RUssians in here were saying the truth, but they left out any mention that they themselves, Russian officials, were spnsoring terrorists against the US.

Originally posted by Muaddib

....the connection the US has with Osama Bin Laden and his crew, as you call them, was that we trained them

As we train many despots, tyrants and dictators.


School of the Americas


.

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by Muaddib

....the connection the US has with Osama Bin Laden and his crew, as you call them, was that we trained them

As we train many despots, tyrants and dictators.


School of the Americas


.

Let's not forget that we help put them in power also.

Originally posted by marg6043
And I will do it until free speech is taken from us the citizens of this country, and for you I am going to give you a warning stop targeting my post and find something else to do.

Giving me a warning?.....for what, pointing out the truth?.... I wonder who was talking in here about censorship so many times......

Originally posted by marg6043
You can not stop me from posting the same way I can not stop you.

True, I was not trying to stop you from talking...just pointing facts...

Originally posted by marg6043
And about your links they are the same you used in every thread that brings bush bad policies on, all from resources that are good for you alone.

Not really, quite a few of them are new, even though they all point to the same information.....

Originally posted by marg6043
I am starting to think that you are either an agent of bushy or have some sick fascination with him.

I guess I better start thinking that you are probably a terrorist, or for some reason have a sick fascination with terrorists....

Originally posted by marg6043
You are as now on my ignore list, I am tired of you. looks that you sole purpose is to tag my post and attack me.

You are tired of me?... Well, I am tired of your exagerations, outright lies, and bashings, but you are still free to tell all the exagerations you want... I'll just keep pointing out facts, not only to you but to anyone that i see is ignoring facts.

I am in Marg's ignore list now?.....wow.....

[edit on 13-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Back to the topic and the last two points:


We train many despots, tyrants and dictators.


School of the Americas


...and then help put them in power.

Originally posted by soficrow
Back to the topic and the last two points:


We train many despots, tyrants and dictators.


School of the Americas


...and then help put them in power.

We used to train and probably still do many people, but not to be despots, tyrants or dictators....people choose to be whatever they want to be. If you want to close schools that train people like in the US, you better demonstrate against most countries in the world...unless you have another agenda...

BTW....let's not forget where ideas like yours come from....

The US bosses are in a crisis mode. This has made other international bosses wary of playing second fiddle to the US capitalists forever. Communists, and friends of the party, need to expose, in our mass work, the laws of inter-imperi-alist rivalry, and the patriotic/nationalist ideology that aid seach group of bosses in convincing workers to kill each other while the bosses roll in the profits from our blood.

Inter-imperialist rivalry, for the control of labor, markets,and resources is a given under capitalism. The European Union moved toward an anti-US position before the IraqiWar to secure its own ruling class interests. Remember I mentioned dangerous illusions. This point exposes another weakness in the ideology of those leading the massive reaction against US imperialism. Siding with one imperialist gang against another imperialist gang is a deadly nationalist mistake. Without a revolutionary class analysis – a communist analysis – all reactions against impe-rialism, here or there, will lead to repression, death, and defeat of our class.

These dangerous illusions also dominate the “anybody but Bush” movement. Of course Bush is an open liar and amass murderer – but Bush and Kerry are more similar than different. Imperialist war costs the working class in many big ways – not only in the masses of war dead – but in the loss of almost 3 million jobs since 2001 and massive cut-backs in social services which is a direct result of the US bosses drive to stay on top.

Excerpted from.
www.plp.org...

Where have i heard exactly those points before?..... hummm......

Communists and friends of the party...... i wonder what that means...

---edited for errors---

[edit on 13-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by soficrow
Back to the topic and the last two points:


We train many despots, tyrants and dictators.


School of the Americas


...and then help put them in power.

Deny Ignorance - and read the material provided.



"What is the School of the Americas?

The School of the Americas (SOA) is a US Army training school that trains soldiers and military personnel ...in subjects like counter-insurgency, infantry tactics, military intelligence, counter-narcotics operations, and commando operations. This training is funded by US taxpayers,

SOA graduates have included many of the most notorious human rights abusers from Latin America. SOA graduates have led military coups and are responsible for massacres of hundreds of people. Among the SOA's nearly 60,000 graduates are notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia. SOA graduates were responsible for the Uraba massacre in Colombia, the El Mozote massacre of 900 civilians in El Salvador, the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero, and the Jesuit massacre in El Salvador, the La Cantuta massacre in Peru, the torture and murder of a UN worker in Chile, and hundreds of other human rights abuses. In September 1996, under intense pressure from religious and grassroots groups, the Pentagon released seven Spanish-language training manuals used at the SOA until 1991. The New York Times reported, "Americans can now read for themselves some of the noxious lessons the United States Army taught thousands of Latin Americans... [The SOA manuals] recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned."


There's more. Just click on the link.


.

Well Soficrow it seems that the “school of Americas” is located in my neck of the woods.

Let see how nice this school sponsor by our government has been to the world.

For the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at al-Qaida's door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or Whisc. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush's government.

Now let see what we have in our own “training” camp.

Since 1946, SOA has trained more than 60,000 Latin American soldiers and policemen. Among its graduates are many of the continent's most notorious torturers, mass murderers, dictators and state terrorists. As hundreds of pages of documentation compiled by the pressure group SOA Watch show, Latin America has been ripped apart by its alumni.

Let’s name some of our “honor students”

Colonel Byron Lima Estrada, once a student at the school, was convicted in Guatemala City of murdering Bishop Juan Gerardi in 1998. Gerardi was killed because he had helped to write a report on the atrocities committed by Guatemala's D-2, the military intelligence agency run by Lima Estrada with the help of two other SOA graduates. D-2

Humm..........such outstanding students I may say.

Forty per cent of the cabinet ministers who served the genocidal regimes of Lucas Garcia, Rios Montt and Mejia Victores studied at the School of the Americas.

Such a curriculum, doing the world such a great services.

Roberto D'Aubuisson, the leader of El Salvador's death squads; the men who killed Archbishop Oscar Romero; and 19 of the 26 soldiers who murdered the Jesuit priests in 1989.

Argentina's dictators Roberto Viola and Leopoldo Galtieri, Panama's Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos, Peru's Juan Velasco Alvarado and Ecuador's Guillermo Rodriguez all benefited from the school's instruction.

And lets not forget that is our tax payer money that keeps the school open.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Yes our tax payer money has pay for terrorist training in the US.

We forgot notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia. Lower-level SOA graduates have participated in human rights abuses that include the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero and the El Mozote Massacre of 900 civilians.

www.zpub.com...




[edit on 13-2-2005 by marg6043]

There are also many communists and socialists which come to our schools and learn here....Let's close all those schools because we have openings in our schools for anyone in the world, including communists.

i would like to see a list of all the alumni, notice that it says the school trains policemen and soldiers, and see the percentage of people that are evil bastards that at the end use what they learnt in that school agaisnt anyone they feel like it.

Also I would like to see from our own public schools, Colleges and Universities the percentage of people that become gang members, murderers, assassins etc.

Are our education institutions built to train gansters, murderers and the worse our society can come up with because they attend these schools?...

Hey, let's not forget the schools in Spain, Ireland and anywhere else in the world that trains their soldiers and policemen for anti-terrorism....

It is a shame that anyone with money can come to the US and learn almost anything there is, but it is a fact.



[edit on 13-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Also I would like to see from our own public schools, Colleges and Universities the percentage of people that become gang members, murderers, assassins etc.

...It is a shame that anyone with money can come to the US and learn almost anything there is, but it is a fact.

" [The SOA manuals] recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned."



So are you suggesting that people taught "interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail" might become model citizens?

...Or are you saying that anyone who can afford the tuition is able to enroll and take the course?



.

[edit on 13-2-2005 by soficrow]