Apparently Catalonia has born as a Nation or it is the worst post civil war Crisis for Spain

The Peace of God to all that belong to the light
Dear Readers,

What has taken so much years for Scotland or Quebec to decide and various referendums was apparently gotten at once in Catalonia this October 1st where even in spite of the fierce opposition of the central Spanish Government a massive participation is today measured in the polls for around 90 % of support for the separation.

Please check:
www.cnn.com...

This is no doubt the worst political crisis Spain deals with since the end of the civil war, one that challenges not only the Popular Party administration of Santiago Rajoy but also the still relatively recently arrived to the throne King Phillipe VI to see how they could face it.

The decision of the Catalonia regional Parliament and Autonomous government has prevailed to carry out this so risky referendum that is splitting the History of the region and of Spain in two.

Please Check:
www.theguardian.com...

There still so many questions right now on the table, if the decision of the Catalonian people on the streets with their votes can be effectively applied politically to get the so wished separation from Spain.

Everything suggests that the European Union was prepared to deal with any result, that even was prepared to accept Catalonia as a new Member, but today they have decided to stand supporting Rajoy and claiming that the referendum was illegal.

This decision may prevent what seemed to be a major crisis in between Spain and Europe, but for how long that support may last?

Right now it is very difficult to estimate what consequences the outcome of 90% of landslide for the independence may trigger at future not only for Spain, since other European countries also have their own separatist regions, in particular France, Britain and some think even Cyprus or Italy.

Please check:
es.noticias.yahoo.com...

The thread is opened to discuss what no doubt is the political news of the world, a new wave of separatisms, the strongest one since the disolution if the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Apparently a New Nation has born from this referendum but does not have any international recognition so far, well at least from the traditional allies of Spain, it is premature to say what other parts of the world may decide.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Seems like Spain is ready to fight to prevent this. They're using economic pressure as well as the threat of disbanding and re-electing their local governing bodies.

Spain faced worldwide condemnation after police used batons and rubber bullets to stop people voting in the illegal independence referendum, with Catalan officials claiming up to 900 people had been injured.

In an interview with Sky News, Mr Castro urged Catalan leaders to drop plans for an independence declaration, suggesting they would be treated as "outlaws" if it went ahead.

Mr Castro told Sky News: "I think the action taken by the police last Sunday in Barcelona was absolutely proportionate. They were complying with the ruling of the court.

"Having people injured - not in the numbers the Catalan government said - is sad. We don't like that and we understand it's not pleasant to watch that on TV.

"But we do think the response was proportionate."

Spain's ruling party says PM Mariano Rajoy is considering invoking the constitution to dissolve the regional parliament and force fresh Catalan elections if the region's government goes ahead with an independence declaration.

So urce written 1hr ago

Apparently they have the highest GDP of regions of Spain...however also have the worst debt. They've been having problems with businesses leaving their region in favor of other areas. Seems like Spain has been renegotiating agreements with them for a while now...one of the more recent ones took some important areas from them. Basically it all seems to boil down to money. Spain has been in a pretty bad economic way for a while now.

The Spanish government runs the national economy by transferring money from the wealthy regions with industry and tech workers to help subsidize the poor regions in the South of the country; the tourist areas and those with high numbers of African immigrants. For the Spanish government and those poor regions, it only makes sense. For those in Catalonia, the extra high taxation means that they are subsidizing everyone else.

Belgium has a population of 11 million, Norway has a population of 5 million. They are both independent countries. So why shouldn't Catalonia. It's all about money.

a reply to: stormcell

I think if Spain loses Catalonia they're sunk. Its their cash cow area and they're already on the ropes...

a reply to: The angel of light

www.ay-va.pareymedia.com...

The King of Spain, is the only one who holds the title of "King of Jerusalem"

The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light
Dear Readers,

I appreciate the participation in the thread, all the posts are pretty interesting, and well the situation became more tense after the referendum, two days ago, when the secessionist leaders have defied the King warns to stop the separation process and have announced that they will declare formally the independence of the country within days.

Please check:
www.cnn.com...

monkeyviral.com...

We must consider that Barcelona, the Capital is by far the second most important city of Spain, that also the productivity of Catalonia is among the highest of Spain regions only contested by Vascongadas, the Vasco Country that is the other separatist region.

Both regions are the most industrialized autonomies of Spain, they represent a huge contribution to the national economy. We are talking also about two regions that don't speak really Spanish as their national language, Catalan is a Romance language but as distant as Portuguese or Italian toward Spanish and in the case of the Vasco Country Euscaro , their language, is not even Romance but a Celtic one.

There are other regions of Spain that also don't speak Spanish as Galicia that speak a Dialect of Portuguese and Valencia and The balearic Islands that speak both dialects of Catalan. It is clear that what Spain is fighting today is not just Catalonia but the possibility to split in various countries, as it happened in Yugoslavia on the 1990s decade.

Please check:
Final results of the Separatist referendum according with Catalonian Government

Now, I don't know certainly if His Majesty the King Phillipe VI of Spain is the Antichrist, as one of the replies suggest but he must be a kind of Wizard of Oz to be able to handle this crisis without causing a major internal conflict of unpredictable consequences.

One thing is sure The Spanish King must act drastically if he does not want to end with the Title of King of Jerusalem as his only one, since the Catalonia referendum also has adopted for the new country a Republic form of Goverment.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness

I believe their constitution forbids secession? I'll have to look into this further. There's no doubt the vast majority of Catalonians want independence. They'll likely have to fight for it, potentially on the battlefield.

If the majority of people in a country want to vote to change what they aren't happy with, it's called democracy, not 'illegal'.

The scenes at the ballot on tv were shocking, women literally grabbed at the top of a staircase and thrown to the bottom where many more people were laid after suffering the same assault. People on the floor being kicked and dragged out by their hair, frail old ladies with their faces covered in blood from being bludgeoned with heavy blunt weapons (batons). And for what? For voting? It's outrageous.

It looked more like 'stamping out dissent' to me.

a reply to: doobydoll

Yes, many if the scenes were shocking in the sense of extreme violence, brutal force used to repress, about 900 people have been reported as injured.

It is likely that the referendum really shows 90% of support for the separation but the turnout was only 43%, so it is debatable that it's outcome really represents the majority, although the repression to prevent people to take part on it was evident.

Today there are rallies in Barcelona and Madrid calling for dialog, in a weekend when everybody is expecting the speech of Catalonia Government President that had menaced to declare Independence.

Pls Check

www.bbc.com...

The Angel of Lightness

Sorry but I read that is was 38 percent turn out, let's just say they all voted out which was not the case. well, that means almost four out of ten, not enough. The one who did go more than likely saw the vote as null. Cataluna is full of immigrants from the other regions in Spain. So it is obvious they wouldn't want to cut with family and friends. This seems to be a sophisticated form of piracy. Not the first ones to try it in the region, so perhaps you need to take a wider perspective. the Basque people are the ones more entitled than anyone else in Spain. You may find that their vote would be similar also.a reply to: The angel of light

I'm sorry to say but you are wrong in many ways, firstly they may be the richest zone but also have the highest deficit. The south is not full of African immigrants, it is full of Europeans who invest loads in the area. The south grew as the money from people wanting to live in the great climate they have. The data you have is corrupted purposely also if you look at it Catalonia was never a country. Denmark and Norway, for instance, have been for ages. What they want to be is a kind of new offshore reality, someone, some group are desperate to clean the slate so that they can install their new way of that land space. Not only are they desperate but are in a very big rush to do so, one has to ask why they are so urgent about the matter. As we all know history loves to repeat itself if it can.
Take Australia it is one country? yes? As big as it is why doesn't one region just brake away from the rest if they're capable? Take a family, for instance, let's say the father is the one that brings all the money to the family. Why doesn't he just break away from the family and not support them anymore? what happens if does that? The family ends.
Its called teamwork, something humans have always needed. So its time worldwide we worked this out, if not we are doomed to a medieval survival mechanism. The other day myself and two other friends went out, one of the friend's economies is limited to paying all the bills. The ones who are fearing better paid the lunch bill, no big deal. But under the mathematical formula, we shouldn't have invited him because he is currently poor! Better of the dead when we reach that attitude, cause we have lost the plot. a reply to stormcell

originally posted by: ancientthunder
Sorry but I read that is was 38 percent turn out, let's just say they all voted out which was not the case. well, that means almost four out of ten, not enough. The one who did go more than likely saw the vote as null. Cataluna is full of immigrants from the other regions in Spain. So it is obvious they wouldn't want to cut with family and friends. This seems to be a sophisticated form of piracy. Not the first ones to try it in the region, so perhaps you need to take a wider perspective. the Basque people are the ones more entitled than anyone else in Spain. You may find that their vote would be similar also.a reply to: The angel of light

How many stayed home because of the government forces using violence to frighten them away? How many votes were taken away by the police?

As for the rest, if they don't care enough to get out and vote, they shouldn't be allowed to hold to ransom those that do.

it was a non-legal vote, it would have to be agreed to by the central government. If I form part of a community in a block of flats I can go ahead and say I was going to vote for a certain issue. Sure I can go and vote and others can give it a go also, but that vote is truly a waste of time legally speaking. So when the whole community doesn't turn up, I get upset. Sounds a bit ridiculous to me. Another example is the following, I want to sell my car and just do it via a private contract. What happens when the person who thinks he is the new owner runs someone down? Independent of my private contract, I am responsible to give my car, this is how the legal structure works.
The basics aside, if they truly want to be independent they need to before going to vote, understand how to go about it and plan in accordance. From there on I wish them good luck with their venture whatever the result is.
a reply to: SprocketUK

a reply to: ancientthunder


I don't understand the car analogy, but, to argue that the vote being worthless because the Spanish government refuses to recognise it is a foolish premise.

If enough people want something in a community and their rulers refuse to allow them that which they want or some compromise, then it is a dictatorship, not a democracy.

If the Madrid government had supported the referendum there may have been a different result, doing what they did has just hardened opinion against remaining part of Spain.

I see your view, none the less the government is one thing and the people are another. Take the UK, London vote to stay in the EU but...

Why does London become independent from the rest of England and the whole UK? In truth, they produce much more goodies" pounds" than the rest of the UK. How would the rest of England feel about that?

Perhaps they wouldn't mind in the least. a reply to: SprocketUK

[If enough people want something in a community and their rulers refuse to allow them that which they want or some compromise, then it is a dictatorship, not a democracy.]

Now the supposed leader of Catalonia says he wants independence without even having the full backing of the people anyway, it's laughable. It seems that most leaders who stay firm in their own view lean towards a form of dictatorship. In the UK, it's the same only you mask it better. You wrap it in nice words, but once the clothes and the ties are removed the true colours are seen.
If you were honest, you would realize that most governments are a form of mafia with blue suits on, In Spain the conservative party wanted to make abortion illegal again now in my book that is someone without a clue trying to tell an individual what they should or not do with their bodies.


a reply to: SprocketUK

a reply to: ancientthunder

Well London is the capital so cant split, but I 100 per cent guarantee that if there was a vote for London to leave the UK and have a border set around the M25 it would be about 90 percent to remain in the UK. its a silly argument cooked up by those who like the feeling of the Eu boot on their necks

You really didn't consider the idea, how would the rest of England take london leaving the uk? I will answer for you, they would see it and feel it as a kind of treason, a dishonourable choice. They would be appaled by it, they would feel resentment.iT WOULD be considered a disgrace by many. a reply to: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ancientthunder
You really didn't consider the idea, how would the rest of England take london leaving the uk? I will answer for you, they would see it and feel it as a kind of treason, a dishonourable choice. They would be appaled by it, they would feel resentment.iT WOULD be considered a disgrace by many. a reply to: SprocketUK

A more reasonable analogy would be Scotland choosing to leave the UK.

Our government supported their right to have a free and fair referendum on the issue and, furthermore most UK citizens also support the Scottish people's right to decide the matter for themselves
That is what the Spanish government should have done with respect to Catalonia and, the idea of the UK government EVER sending police in to beat people at polling stations, confiscate ballot boxes and generally oppress the population is nonsensical and, I would imagine would result in the fall of that government.

And there is no way London would ever secede from the UK, despite whatever tabloid hacks might say who are trying to spin up the words of lefty windbags like the mayor.