Iraqi Kurds cast their votes in historic referendum

Iraqi Kurds cast ballots in a controversial independence referendum Monday as tensions between Iraq's largest ethnic minority and the Iraqi government in Baghdad intensified.

Kurdish election officials said 72% of eligible voters had cast their votes in the referendum. The Kurdistan Regional Government, which administers a semi-autonomous region in northern Iraq, says the referendum will give it a mandate to achieve independence from Iraq.

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What say you ATS? Do the Kurds deserve to have their own nation? They have been the loyalist of allies to the U.S. during the whole Iraq Conflict. They are fairly tolerant of others, considering the region. You don't see them killing Yadzi's or Christians or Muslims civilians. They seem to have quite a bit of respect for Women and democracy. They have Run the North of Iraq basically independent for about 20 years now. They were one of the only Middle Eastern Armies to withstand ISIS, even though they lost Mosul.

Will the world support nationhood for a Kurdistan?

Obviously Iraq and Turkey and Syria are against it. None of them have the Moral claim that the Kurds do. They just want a place for themselves and be left alone.

For me the Kurds have paid their dues in blood and in actions and are deserving of a State of their own. At the very least they should maintain their autonomous state they currently have. They seem to be quite good and resilient people.

What do you think?

a reply to: pavil

When they drew lines on the map dividing the "Arabian Peninsula" into nations after WWI, they left out the Kurds. Now that lines have been drawn they won't change, unless and until the victors say so.

Divide and conquer.

It won't go anywhere. The hugely destablising effect it will have on the region (already known for it's instability) will not allow it to go ahead, regardless of the result.

The Iraqi, Peshmerga-led Kurds should probably have their own country though. I can't speak to the Turkish ones but the Syrian Kurds with all their ethnic cleansing and recent invasion into Arab-majority land deserve absolutely nothing.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: pavil

When they drew lines on the map dividing the "Arabian Peninsula" into nations after WWI, they left out the Kurds. Now that lines have been drawn they won't change, unless and until the victors say so.

Divide and conquer.

So once again the world just shows the middle finger to the Kurds? I understand the political dynamics but how do you jettison the Kurds, who have proven to be loyal allies and great fighters, considering what limited arms we give them. I can't in conscience tell them they don't deserve their own land.

It opens up a can of worms, like you said, That wasn't addressed by the carving up of the Ottoman Empire. Kurds will have to be happier with a smaller Nation than they would geographically and historically want, considering where Kurds are currently located. Turkey with Erdogan will fight tooth and nail to make this not happen.

I think it's a mistake. Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Turkey are all dead-set against allowing an independent Kurdish state. That's why Turkey invaded Syria: to prevent the Kurds from taking that area.

Honestly, the US has been a fair-weather friend to the Kurds before, and I see the same thing happening this time. Once ISIS has been defeated, watch as the United States promptly loses all interest in the Kurds and their struggles.

Unless someone (Russia?) convinces them to knock off the independence talk, it's going to get ugly for the Kurds.

a reply to: Ohanka

I agree, in Turkey and Syria I can't see any Kurdish State. That's the risk you run with and Kurd Nation out of Northern Iraq.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think we can destabilize the region any more than we have done in Syria and Iraq already. The Kurds in the north of Iraq have probably been one of the most stable regions in that area.

a reply to: pavil

So once again the world just shows the middle finger to the Kurds? I understand the political dynamics but how do you jettison the Kurds, who have proven to be loyal allies and great fighters, considering what limited arms we give them.

They are exploited to fight for the West under false promise of their own state. When they get 'upitty' they are suppressed.

See Iraq uses US nerve gas on Kurds.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

Honestly, the US has been a fair-weather friend to the Kurds before, and I see the same thing happening this time. Once ISIS has been defeated, watch as the United States promptly loses all interest in the Kurds and their struggles.

Some type of agreement needs to be reached giving the Kurds in Iraq their self determination in some for, similar to at least what they currently have.

I have no doubt the U.S. would turn their back on the Kurds, given the geopolitical ramifications. My stance is, they are deserving of our support in some form of self government. They have earned it. No one else in the world will give a crap about them, someone needs to be a supporter of their aspirations. The Kurds aren't going away, the problem will continue to fester.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: pavil

So once again the world just shows the middle finger to the Kurds? I understand the political dynamics but how do you jettison the Kurds, who have proven to be loyal allies and great fighters, considering what limited arms we give them.

They are exploited to fight for the West under false promise of their own state. When they get 'upitty' they are suppressed.

See Iraq uses US nerve gas on Kurds.

I can just see it now........ The Kurds will become the next "terror" group in the region. The Kurds can never catch a break it seems.

originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: pavil

So once again the world just shows the middle finger to the Kurds? I understand the political dynamics but how do you jettison the Kurds, who have proven to be loyal allies and great fighters, considering what limited arms we give them.

They are exploited to fight for the West under false promise of their own state. When they get 'upitty' they are suppressed.

See Iraq uses US nerve gas on Kurds.

I can just see it now........ The Kurds will become the next "terror" group in the region. The Kurds can never catch a break it seems.

Every bomb used to fight the war on terror creates more terrorists.

a reply to: pavil

I used to think the Kurds were ok and probably a good many of them are but in Northern Syria it could actually be that the Kurds have 2 flags and uniforms they wear ...one being ISIS .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: pavil

I used to think the Kurds were ok and probably a good many of them are but in Northern Syria it could actually be that the Kurds have 2 flags and uniforms they wear ...one being ISIS .

Yes the Syrian Kurds seem more related to the PKK in Turkey. They seem not as reliable to use a word.
They are distinct from the Peshmerga In Northern Iraq.

a reply to: pavil

Obviously Iraq and Turkey and Syria are against it. None of them have the Moral claim that the Kurds do. They just want a place for themselves and be left alone.

That might be the case but because of the oil in the area will be very difficult. Here are few map that will show you why Iraq/Iran/Turkey is against it.

Map of Turkey



Map of Indepedent Kurdistan



Oil Fields



You can clearly see, what geopolitical power an indepedent Kurdistan will have in the area.

Peace

originally posted by: Seed76
a reply to: pavil

Obviously Iraq and Turkey and Syria are against it. None of them have the Moral claim that the Kurds do. They just want a place for themselves and be left alone.

That might be the case but because of the oil in the area will be very difficult. Here are few map that will show you why Iraq/Iran/Turkey is against it.

Map of Turkey

Map of Indepedent Kurdistan

Oil Fields

You can clearly see, what geopolitical power an indepedent Kurdistan will have in the area.

Peace




[/quoteForgot that Iran doesn't want a Kurdistan either. Feel bad for them. Like many things goes back to Western powers drawing arbitrary lines on the ground.

Western attempts to saw chaos in the Erbil region of Iraq will backfire on the west by hampering the ability of western countries to get oil from that region.