The 2012 Alpine Murders Conspiracy – Unexplained and Unsolved

a reply to: mirageman

What a fantastically well-presented thread.

They ran a short, entertaining article about this case on R4 lately that brought it all back. It's one of those horrible events that promises to go unanswered with whomever was responsible getting away with it. It piques the curiosity hard though. Everything about it looks like a plot from James Lee Burke or a lost scene from the Bourne movies.

It seems like a contract killing and, if the extensive investigation/s haven't found anything, we don't have a hope of learning the whys and wherefores. I wonder if the killer really overlooked the young girl or chose not to kill her because she was a child?

I can see this story becoming a chapter in future *mystery murders* paperbacks.

a reply to: Kandinsky

But why would a contract killer use an old WW2 pistol? Surely there are better weapons?

a reply to: starwarsisreal

Throwaway?

I believe the little girls are being brought up by the victims brother Zaib...at least that's what I recal from the time.
Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: Kandinsky

Isn't a WW2 gun kind hard to obtain nowadays?

Whatever the case, I am skeptical it was done by an intelligence agency.

As stated earlier, it would been very sloppy if done by an intelligence operative. There are far more sophisticated ways of assassinating a target. For example, the KGB used a poison gun that not only kills their target but also make it appear the victim suffered from a heart attack.

In one of my threads, I wrote about how KGB assassin Bogdan Stashinsky killed two Ukrainian dissidents and nobody found out it was an assassination until he spilled the beans.

a reply to: starwarsisreal

I'm guessing they'd be somewhat easier to come by on mainland Europe due to WW2 and the French Resistance.

Oh yeah I get that political assassinations can be very clever indeed (I mean carried out by Intel professionals). We don't know if this was a private mercenary killing or an extension of something else that's unknown.

It says over on the wiki how police looked at a lone psychopath and they'll know more about it than I do. It just doesn't seem right to me. Someone with an urge to kill like this doesn't get to do it the once and move on. The accuracy speaks of practice and professionalism whereas you'd imagine some sicko with an urge to murder wouldn't be so successful.

ETA - given the space tech connection, I was reminded of the Marconi conspiracy from waaaaaaaay back. Lots of people met unlikely and/or unexpected deaths in the 80s. Not saying this is tied in; idly mentioning it is all. Link

a reply to: Kandinsky

Well okay I'll agree it's private mercenary. Actually that makes more sense. The CIA, Mossad, the FSB, and other intelligence agencies will never pull off something like this.

They'll do something similar to Stashinsky, to make the assassination less obvious or they can use Patsies like Oswald if the JFK conspiracies are real.

The killer himself would have been eliminated long ago since he would have been a lose end.

a reply to: starwarsisreal

The case seems unusually populated with potential suspects and leads. It's like Kevin Bacon in there with degrees of separation from ex-military, shady figures and suspected contract killers.

It was no Litvinenko-style assassination, but probably just as effective. Without knowing the end goal we can only speculate.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Perhaps a rival corporation? Industrial Espionage comes into mind.

I think the brother had the clearest simplest motive. The whole family had to be wiped out for the inheritance. A contract killing in another country would be the ideal way to distance himself from suspicion.

S&F for the OP

I want to look into this later when have a little more free time

Nothing to add except brilliant work OP ace thread

a reply to: angelchemuel

Time for some regression therapy?

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: Kandinsky

Perhaps a rival corporation? Industrial Espionage comes into mind.

It's hard to make clear sense of isn't it? A hitman could have simply killed the target without killing the witnesses too. That might suggest the hitman was concerned about being identified which then suggests a degree of familiarity. An unconnected hitman would have no concerns about being identified and would surely take precautions like wearing a mask. I could see those thoughts leading the investigation into the brother. IIRC the stats run at something like 9/10 murders are committed by people known to the victim.

Killing the witnesses could also have been tying up a loose end or sending a message to someone else. I guess it could also have been a screw up by the killer or that the women reacted in a way that forced his hand. The cyclist was bad timing and the icing on the cake of unexpected events for the killer imo.

The depth of mystery and coincidence reminds me of the Tamam Shud case.

Was there any information gleaned from the two daughters that were there when the murders occurred?
Or did I miss that?
I just woke up, so my eyes and my mind are a bit blurry at the moment.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Chadwickus

Maybe the animation in the OP led you to think it was snowy.
It did me, at first.

Now you've pointed it out, although that was not the intention, I can see what you are getting out.



To help form a picture in our minds. Here is the location of where the al-Hilli's and Sylvain Mollier were found dead

Google Maps

You can also see a sign forbidding anyone but riverside and forestry workers from proceeding beyond the small car parking area on the road.

So anyone going up that way would have to return down the mountain road if in a regular vehicle. If the killers had an off road vehicle then surely the forestry workers would have noticed had they trespassed beyond the car parking area. They told the mysterious motorcyclist to turn around. So anyone else in the area should have been spotted. Unless of course they were on foot.

originally posted by: Funem
There's a couple of little bits you missed out.
Firstly the guy who found them was ex-raf, prob just a coincidence but you never know.
Also they wanted for a forensic/investigation team to come in from Paris. This meant they didn't start looking at the car or evidence until 8 hours after they were discovered. There was an equally qualified team of people alot closer than this.
Just a couple more tidbits there.

Yes indeed. Thanks for adding.

There was also DNA found on the family car. But no matches were found.

As a general reply to the thread.

I have no real idea what happened. But here are few observations.

* The al-Hilli's headed into the mountains based on Zainab's suggestion that afternoon. They may well have taken a wrong turn and before turning back stopped for a breath of fresh air. Zainab was found stumbling near the family car. Saad was found dead at the wheel but forensic evidence showed he had also stepped out of the car.

* The assassin fired off 25 bullets (according to some sources it was 21**) from a 7.65mm Luger P06 handgun. This was a common weapon used by the Swiss army and police forces before WWII. There are still thousands held by private citizens across Europe. Perhaps easy to get hold of and dispose of?

* The fact that Zeena was unharmed while her sister Zainab was shot and then clubbed with gun suggest that the killer had no compulsion about murdering children and was unaware Zeena was even with the family.

* Zainab remembered very little but claims there was only one killer.

* The killer seems to have vanished without a trace. Unless the police have made an error with the motorcyclist. So was the killer on foot hiding in the woods? If so then who were they really waiting for?

* It all seems too sloppy to have been an intelligence hit. But then a lot of things in the case seem sloppy. Even the reporting of facts in the news media. How many bullets were fired, how many hit the victims.....?? If you read the MSM reports even these basic facts are reported differently across the various news sources. All adding to the confusion.

* Zaid al-Hilli has stated he does not trust the French police. But he is also unfortunately the one guy who would appear to have a major motive for eliminating his brother.

* Sylvain Mollier was a local man and yet much of the focus seems to have been on the al-Hilli family by the French authorities. There is also a possible motive behind his death relating back to his partner and their family.



If it's beyond the police forces of two nations then I can't really offer anything more than a guess at what may have occurred.

So if it's any help here's a documentary produced on the case. Be warned it's two hours long.

Just FYI, Patrice Menegaldo committed suicide by gunshot, but I don't know where one would find details illuminating the events surrounding his death.

Great thread, indeed it is reminiscent of the ATS of yesteryear.

originally posted by: butcherguy
Was there any information gleaned from the two daughters that were there when the murders occurred?
Or did I miss that?
I just woke up, so my eyes and my mind are a bit blurry at the moment.

Again the details seem a little fuzzy over this and you have to search a number of news sources for a tiny morsel of information.

Zainab who was seven at the time said she was shot and hit with a pistol by a lone gunman but "remembered nothing significant" according to the French investigators. Zeena saw nothing as she was hiding in the car. However on the girls return to England they went to live with an aunt and uncle (not Zaid) and were under police guard. Suggesting that the British authorities felt they could still be potential targets by whoever the killer(s) were. It also seems their identities were changed.