Spain is dropping the hammer on Catalonia.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Sorry Solo you really do need to pull the tartan from over your eyes. Britain and its enormous imperial resources in 1945 was militarily a superpower. Plus we had an enormous manufacturing base. Much of world finance was run from London. True we owed a bit of dosh to the bankers but we always did and do and the way things are going always will. Our manufacturing was kick ass in the 50's and 60's plus new technology made Imperial control much easier. The natives never beat us in that era, Kenya and Malaya etc we subdued and could have carried on for decades to come, but a mindset changed at home.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Ironically our fortunes only took a turn for the better after we joined the Eu in the 70's.

The UK joined the EEC in 1973. The EU was formed in 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty. A small point of accuracy.

While the association with the EEC and EU have undoubtedly been helpful for the UK economy, some would argue (quite legitimately) that it has also been detrimental. It has impacted the UK's ability to form trading relationships that are more akin to the UK's economy as opposed to (say) Germany's or the economy of France.

Would British Steel, or the car manufacturers, or the aircraft manufacturers, or chemicals (etc) have survived if the European rules did not get in the way? How about ship building. All these industries somehow managed to keep going elsewhere in Europe. Fisheries in England and especially Scotland were killed by the need to keep Belgium, or Spanish fleets productive.

The future world growth is not in the EU, it's in India, Egypt and Nigeria, and in Mexico, the US and Australia.

a reply to: tadaman

Nuclear armaments.

I needn't say much more.

If Saudi Arabia can just buy nuclear weapons if it wished do you not think Denmark could?

Honestly, if any major European conflict happened again, actions equivalent to the 19th and 20th centuries, nuclear weapons will be utilised. All civilization will be destroyed.

That's the risk of conflict now, it's why peace by any cost is a real and serious prospect.

As for production, the world is a very different place than 50 years ago. I've watched companies come and go once their contracts run at around a car manufacturing plant near me. They literally shut up shop, dismantle everything then erect it all elsewhere. A couple of months if that. Necessity could see factories opened in weeks, maybe days.

The very reason the US was a superpower after WWII was due to it's manufacturing prowess, prowess that didn't really exist before that war. I don't feel I need to explain how far we've came in 60 years in terms of division of labour, standardisation and mass assembly.

Again NATO. Most Europeans use the NATO standard equipment, they train and work with each other via NATO and work together on their own terms too. European nations compliment each other militarily.

Another angle, if it ever did kick off, is this:

Have you ever hit rock bottom?

I know that when a person has, they are capable of things they never thought possible. Murder, theft, cannibalism. Those weaklings standing on a wall in a show of force come from a long line of survivors.

People who others figured they could conquer, sieges lasting years... You can't predict the resolve of a desperate human. Many will die but a few won't.

Not that sieges, men on the wall or factories matter. You just drop the bomb. Problem solved.


We'll have peace or we'll have nothing.

It's a sad and sobering fact.

a reply to: stormcell

Exactly

It's natural progression really. But sometimes we're slow to evolve.

When the states of America were forming they had a fraction of the populations they do now. One of the biggest problems a nation can face is the effective administration of power.

Effectively it either becomes so expensive to manage or you'll eventually have discontent citizens. Either way "leasing" authority and autonomy is an obvious solution.

Britain couldn't hold it's empire after WWII, it didn't have the force projection. We did similar things after WWI too and also before. We just didn't have the navy to protect home and abroad. The 19th century saw the end of ships of the line, by the 1890's British naval prowess was all but dead.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

We had a largely leased economy just after WWII.

We bounced back hard, that's true. A mass of unemployed soldiers, and people working on the war machine that isn't needed anymore can do that for a nation. Add in massive reconstruction projects and times can be good.

But don't kid yourself we could've held all our lands. We didn't have the manpower, we didn't have the stomach for it. Yes we may have had vast resources and the knowledge to utilise them but where do you get the workers from?

From the gene pools you're dictating too? The ones you'd have to brutally oppress and most likely make slaves of just to get your bidding done?

Have a look at our nations history of war, specifically the last 150 years. You'll notice the majority were putting down rebellions left right and center. Brutally I might add.

It was bad enough holding South Africa and Asia when we were at our best militarily.

I agree a mindset changed at home though, it's the main reason we couldn't have held all those lands. Because the method of doing so would be against our very fiber as a nation.

It says a lot when a nation is becoming sick of it's own brutality. And when it comes to "lesser" people we weren't half brutal.

We were absolute *****.

The whole idea behind the independence of Catalonia is actually a charade orchestrated by the EU for the sole purpose of attempting to foment secessionist movements in some parts of the world where they are still hopelessly attempting to prevent the end of colonialism.

The movements for the independence of Catalonia are all manufactured by the EU and Spain itself. There's no grassroots or anything like that about it.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

originally posted by: pavil
So they have no right to a referendum on their future? They won't be allowed to break away? Doesn't seem very "Modern European" to even block the vote? Screw self determination, the EU saw what happens when you actually let the citizens of a land vote.

The state will always act to protect its own power. That's why California will never secede, no matter how much noise retarded celebs make, and no matter how much the rest of us wish they would secede. Because it's not in the state's interests to allow it.

What about Texas? They have a vociferous secessionist movement. Are they 'retarded celebrities', too'? Or do you have a different pejorative since Texas is a 'Red State'??

Spanish Democracy 2017. This is what happens when you politely ask for permission for the right to self governance.

Pics from today at the polling stations and around Catalunia.





















This is only the start.

duplicate post

Reports of at least 337 people injured, some critically.

originally posted by: face23785
Reports of at least 337 people injured, some critically.

Flamin heck! 337 injured? Sounds mental................................. Can we send fighters in and bomb Madrid plus launch some sub based cruise missiles at some Spanish military installations to stop this ethnic cleansing?

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: face23785
Reports of at least 337 people injured, some critically.

Flamin heck! 337 injured? Sounds mental................................. Can we send fighters in and bomb Madrid plus launch some sub based cruise missiles at some Spanish military installations to stop this ethnic cleansing?

Recently seen in Catalonia:

a reply to: face23785

The way the Spanish authorities are behaving firing on protesters then surely we should expect a 'coalition' to go in and sort this out. It's ethnic cleansing right?

Catalonia will probably declare UDI whatever happens now. Madrid has overstepped the mark by miles here. Franco never really went away. Fascist scum.

Be interesting to see how Europe reacts to these events and Catalonia declaring UDI.

For those who dont know what UDI stands for.. Unilateral Delaration of Independence.

originally posted by: face23785
Reports of at least 337 people injured, some critically.

I watched a video earlier, The Police/Thugs were throwing women, men, pensioners, anyone they could get there hands on headfirst down flights of stairs. Dragging them by the hair and beating the absolute crap out of them. I'm surprised retaliatin by whatever means neccessary has not started yet.

Wait for nightfall and certain groups to organise.This is about to explode. My only hope is the catalonians take it to the heart of Madrid. Why # in your own nest.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ethnic cleansing?

No. But was a brutal crackdown on what Spain sees as an illegal and unconstitutional referendum.

They went too far.

It can go one of three ways now.

1. Catalonia gives up.
2. More militant-minded activities.
3. A mass strike akin to Ghandi's Indian revolution.

I hope it's the third, one of the others is inconceivable as it stands and the other Spain has seen before.

I don't know what the hell Spain was thinking shipping troops and police in to brutally crack this down, it's done them (the government) no favours.

Madness. They've just bred long term resentment and potentially terrorism out of nothing. If they'd let them have a legal vote with high participation rates it would likely have been a vote to stay anyway. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

a reply to: RAY1990

here is to hoping for a reincarnation of Ghandi...

But after the over the top crackdown, I do not see it happening, and with the EU (prior to this) stating the best thing is for spain to remain whole.

Catalonia will probably be on its own for some time, and spain seems to have prepared for what amounts to a military occupation.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: face23785

The way the Spanish authorities are behaving firing on protesters then surely we should expect a 'coalition' to go in and sort this out. It's ethnic cleansing right?

Maybe Angela Merkel can fix it.

a reply to: Irishhaf

One can hope.

The way the world is going though, it seems that aggression is a good go to, an easy way to get what you want.

Spain best be careful, can't members be kicked out of the EU for human rights violations?

I'm expecting Spain to carefully walk that line. I'm expecting terrorist groups to come out of hiding too.